From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 13:07:56 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 830F310A9A2F for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 13:07:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd35.google.com (mail-io1-xd35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A2C0E958ED for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 13:07:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd35.google.com with SMTP id z16-v6so7818989iol.6 for ; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 06:07:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=9mIHULBX1kVwtTwodZcHYwSmmtg1NerNJ6YRELoeZbs=; b=mC9mykkocwqgYjG1HmWAop3WNmcXs+XzC52j83sF1JwIlSH/scLbKSFMPD/PsDLCMS FGa3isvhCmfGQHRJKb8QI55hupzsjwifTuPp6irEc+V99xi/pVwohtAV8z0PhwWB3mZ7 xj3KtClKF7uIEpuoMQjm0H+5e281892F0gcuptX2QUMPIJYdkRu4BLfgrgHRTwOZD/WK nNhU7VrMUc0KBY9kWhWSYJBjHE7CmxFHbgX922n2XzBL73DpydwGOLYTP6fNIZFQR0GZ 4glKio1n5lbZZvWNpLn3SlXLHJCt2Z7JIc71JsYxIGA2r7rgv/It6/T0pUvb+8S9bbvO x/qA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9mIHULBX1kVwtTwodZcHYwSmmtg1NerNJ6YRELoeZbs=; b=S2StosoZqFxqj+Lmxym0SvsZpNCz22RsjC2fvLmbyPqoePXzdLUYH1s3CHDimf/sjz L8zW76AhuAapUo2ytgjd91ZWmtA+dLUO3tfnL7fnUG6o/4RanSpVWuy/6DY4MaRpOzwS nZYFpIqgORVAPOBxa2sg8lsigZLdspyMJdIt2nCq+AWW55rT6tyGFVkCeJLVJOrMon0D m13xFiZcZevEcf05ea1iZPQVwM+BanbxVfRlN2LtAbJpVadZZ1nxJztiuivXqs8s+uSp KeUyghMSUlsREH5W56uOkqnuinVo/68HRXuomfRCCzhszPcQ2bQV7Gi5vYp0reLlHB5z XFRA== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfojAX1GRYpcMS9FhYLDVro8ldrcQl7j+rWOb0PFKEXaSlXbx/50N lZ0RrRHMScdJr59d9GexlgFmzBwqwFo3xMJo6Xqtuw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV6248mDexwkUBIAGL9LrKwjM5xJbv162K5jpqnZafffvRm2Mlh1/tMaHrYBQRcyI6tE2SnUGAHv5EFLuRIl71UU= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:e715:: with SMTP id b21-v6mr4537243ioh.37.1538658474822; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 06:07:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <20181004084411.GA50348@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <20181004084411.GA50348@FreeBSD.org> From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 07:07:43 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: Alexey Dokuchaev Cc: Brooks Davis , FreeBSD Net , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 13:07:56 -0000 On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 2:45 AM Alexey Dokuchaev wrote: > Looking at the commits they require near zero maintenance. What exactly > is the burden here? > I believe that characterization is incorrect. There's a burden. And it's death of a thousand cuts. And many of those cuts have been inflicted on brooks@. Most of these drivers have had dozens or hundreds of commits each over the years to keep up with the API changes. This acts as a tax on innovation because it's such a pain in the back side to change all the drivers in the tree. I did a back of the envelope computation that this is on the order of hundreds of hours of time, spread across all the drivers over all the years we've supported them. Some of these drivers are clearly unused, and so that's 100% wasted effort. Most of these drivers are on machines that most likely won't be able to run 13.0 well when it comes out in 2 years due to increased memory demands that it will almost certainly have. The declining use means we anticipate that if we were to maintain them until 13, it would be wasted effort for at least some on the list. That's why that one way to get the driver off the list is to convert to iflib. That greatly reduces the burden by centralizing all the stupid, common things of a driver so that we only have to change one place, not dozens. At the root of this problem is the community's long resistance to having data reported back to the project data about the machines running FreeBSD. Absent any real and significant data, the only way to know if things are unused is to ask. We cannot have the act of merely asking cause people to freak out and hurl expletives all over the place. That's significantly not cool. Warner