From owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org Sun Nov 15 13:54:26 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B798EA2F983; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 13:54:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mfl-commissioner@marino.st) Received: from shepard.synsport.net (mail.synsport.com [208.69.230.148]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7125D10B6; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 13:54:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mfl-commissioner@marino.st) Received: from [192.168.1.22] (210.Red-81-38-187.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net [81.38.187.210]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by shepard.synsport.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DAAD43BB2; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 07:54:23 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Need help fixing failing locale tests To: Andrey Chernov , marino@freebsd.org, Baptiste Daroussin References: <69242BD8-9010-47F0-9706-BE206376ECEA@gmail.com> <289892B6-EACE-4BDA-B838-D3DC750319DE@gmail.com> <56482FA9.2010803@marino.st> <56487973.5070803@freebsd.org> <20151115124656.GB93991@ivaldir.etoilebsd.net> <564880FA.5000009@freebsd.org> <564882A3.7060109@marino.st> <5648842E.3050203@freebsd.org> <5648853F.2050901@marino.st> <56488A76.1090502@freebsd.org> Cc: NGie Cooper , Craig Rodrigues , freebsd-current Current , "freebsd-testing@freebsd.org" From: John Marino X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Message-ID: <56488E8C.9080901@marino.st> Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 14:54:20 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <56488A76.1090502@freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 13:54:26 -0000 On 11/15/2015 2:36 PM, Andrey Chernov wrote: > On 15.11.2015 16:14, John Marino wrote: >>> It is user confusion and his responsibility. It not leads to wrong >>> program build f.e. Moreover, you can't protect users who set 8859-1 that >>> way, they do not convert to 8859-15 as you assume but start to complain >>> everywhere that FreeBSD is not working instead. >> >> Invalid. "locale -a" shows what locales are available. >> The confusion is not with one user. It's with one user that produces >> document in one encoding and a second user that choses the wrong one >> (usually -1). -15 was designed to replace -1. > > No end-user use 'locale -a' to check locales. To quote you, that means it "user confusion and responsibility". Fine. He can "ls -d /usr/share/locales". Otherwise, how does said user set locales for the FIRST time. We are talking about people that install FreeBSD 11 as a release. If it's an upgrade, it's documented in UPDATING (it will be) and anybody on -CURRENT is taking responsibility for knowing what they are doing. *IF* this is an obstacle, it's either trivial or that user shouldn't be using -CURRENT to begin with. > An end-user keep some > 8859-1 version is set many years ago, and "FreeBSD not working" problem > I tell about is not different text document encoding, but program > failure due to inability to set his 8859-1 locale. Please provide an example of such a program (in ports). > In any case it is related to the user behavior an various views on it. > They can be different and I see no point to insist on my particular view > at all. But... Programs configure soft-fails shows real danger here. and the impact of this is ... ? > >> OpenBSD removed ISO8859* completely. > > OpenBSD was never good in locales in any case for all that years and > contributes nothing in that area (f.e. Citrus was made by NetBSD). Now > they try to simplify their life of supporting them, but since for us now > all locales are autogenerated from CLDR I see no room for simplification > in that way. Our "cleaned" locales (against to POLA) can be restored by > autogeneration with minimal efforts, and they even took very little disk > space. It's not a technical issue. -1 (and some -15) weren't removed for technical issues, but to keep order. >> Also invalid. Locales are not standardized with regard to encoding, so >> maintaining a museum of locales is specific to FreeBSD. Linux calls >> them differently. > > Most of our (old) locales have the same names as linux ones. Actually, none of the ISO* encodings. Linux will accept "ISO8859-1" because it's hyphen-insensitive, it it calls it "ISO-8859-1" Maybe obsolete ones like cp866, GB2312 ... but there are more different than the same. John