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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID c4484a5656acd26ecc0d7ee607a31c89; Mon, 04 Aug 2025 14:52:05 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 List-Id: Packaging the FreeBSD base system List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-pkgbase List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.600.51.1.1\)) Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature From: Mark Millard In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2025 07:51:54 -0700 Cc: Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz>, vermaden , Shawn Webb , "freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-stable@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" , pete@nomadlogic.org, bapt@freebsd.org, bane@pmf.uns.ac.rs Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8690FF2F-B66D-423E-815C-9D64700A7D7D@yahoo.com> References: To: David Chisnall X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.600.51.1.1) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bwffQ3Bqsz3j08 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36647, ipnet:98.137.64.0/20, country:US] On Aug 1, 2025, at 07:22, David Chisnall wrote: > On 31 Jul 2025, at 02:57, Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> wrote: >>=20 >> I would also like to separate it. Use one command to update (upgrade) = 3rd party packages and another to update (upgrade) base packages. It is = our workflow for the last 25+ years thus running one command to update = both is really unexpected and unwanted. >=20 > I disagree here. If you *want* to separate them, then you can: you = can specify the repository that you want to upgrade explicitly. But if = you do then you risk things like: >=20 > - I=E2=80=99ve upgraded my base system, but not my ports-kmods = things, so now my GUI doesn=E2=80=99t start. PkgBase does not remove the issue that updating the kernel first, rebooting, and then updating the world can be a requirement. (World should get a later reboot as well.) Last I knew PkgBase did not manage this sequence of itself, even for when kmods are not involved. I selectively update the kernels first and reboot before updating teh other PkgBase packages. (The plural 'kernels' is because I'm using main and have all the PkgBase kernels installed. One can not do that for non-main for contexts with .dtb files involved: conflicts.) Is it always safe to update all the ports-kmods before the world is updated so they are in place for the after-kernel reboot with the old world? If not, then PkgBase is not of itself a way of making the handling automatic as far as I can tell. > - I=E2=80=99ve upgraded ports, but the ports tree is built on a newer = point release and I need to upgrade to make some symbols exist. > - I=E2=80=99ve upgraded the base system and now some kmods from ports = don=E2=80=99t work. >=20 > All of these are things that users have complained about publicly in = the last year or so. =20 >=20 > I have avoided them by always doing `freebsd-update install && pkg = upgrade` and keeping that in my shell history[1] so I don=E2=80=99t = accidentally forget to upgrade both together. >=20 > Given a choice between a thing that works for users, or something that = *can* work for users but comes with a bunch of footguns that they need = to avoid, I=E2=80=99d pick the former. >=20 > David >=20 > [1] I=E2=80=99ve noticed on fresh installs, the default shell no = longer has working persistent history, which is a *big* POLA violation, = if people want to complain about something. >=20 =3D=3D=3D Mark Millard marklmi at yahoo.com