From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sun Aug 9 20:08:41 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 029D599D960 for ; Sun, 9 Aug 2015 20:08:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from instructionset@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ob0-x235.google.com (mail-ob0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BB1576AA; Sun, 9 Aug 2015 20:08:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from instructionset@gmail.com) Received: by obbhe7 with SMTP id he7so14582397obb.0; Sun, 09 Aug 2015 13:08:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=CQ4kzuo5f6AV7cO1/SJENBZMuXLWfHISKvsCCUGg7H0=; b=yC2YTY2JZB/UF7HtuA9tCKXdOPyOXAk2nK2qPtJQ8APBzJHQUSpNPio6ISyvXvXIYH DeUXZwf5n6d/h0smNr64f7HdpfofIolP8SdG3U0/Fjw/32uVBLlxlkUhe718e7JJxQci RSgxiicN6+J1TMFpwgvIQbB6/Lnd/tQ4DNgvorXhQwJXMokO4jtvc9ZT11S73xrDe5Zn pDv1rMP/Fmn5/bJzOQ/dCHOrP7QjvD3bE9VuM9mv0SWqA2dI9qV8BJd5LpOJgOsTjg1t BJ2uXsx1JO/IrAzJS+yZ3oU04QuhlGE8JM9aICADbKQET/r3VDsT8IbtjOM2C59aElLx TChA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.52.110 with SMTP id s14mr5947925oeo.14.1439150920095; Sun, 09 Aug 2015 13:08:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.202.129.139 with HTTP; Sun, 9 Aug 2015 13:08:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.202.129.139 with HTTP; Sun, 9 Aug 2015 13:08:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 15:08:39 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Sparc64 support From: Bill Sorenson To: "K. Macy" Cc: Kevin Bowling , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.20 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2015 20:08:41 -0000 I don't entirely disagree. As long as sparc64 works I'm glad it stays in. I don't personally see sun4v support being much of a priority, unless Oracle pulls a rabbit out of their hat and makes sparc competitive again. On Aug 9, 2015 2:59 PM, "K. Macy" wrote: > I'm eager to encourage wider adoption of FreeBSD to the point where I'm > quite comfortable making myself unpopular with its inner circle by > criticizing project dynamics that hinder that. Nonetheless, I don't agree > that this is a particularly rewarding investment of project resources. > > Please bear in mind that the number of developer man hours of that caliber > is extremely limited. Working on SPARC only makes sense for a developer who > wants to have a free hand in making changes to the MD code that he simply > can't on x86 or simply really enjoys working on it as a niche platform. The > return on investment of sustaining a marginal architecture represented only > by outdated hardware is really vanishingly small vis a vis supporting > recent laptops, better support for newer cloud platforms, and countless > other areas where FreeBSD is struggling to keep up with the Joneses. > > I'm not saying that people who currently work on SPARC should stop doing > so. I'm simply pointing out that as avenues for facilitating wider use of > FreeBSD go, it's a bit lacklustre. > > -K > On Aug 9, 2015 10:47 AM, "Bill Sorenson" wrote: > >> I have done much convincing with regard to new hardware. It always happens >> eventually. But many companies I deal with are in a colo, don't care about >> power consumption (yet) and are reluctant to quit paying for rack space >> they think they might want. They move very slowly. I'd love to have them >> all by new modern hardware, believe you me. >> >> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 10:19 PM, Kevin Bowling >> wrote: >> >> > On 8/5/2015 12:10 PM, Bill Sorenson wrote: >> > >> >> I have been advised to post this in this list. I was going to rewrite >> this >> >> a bit but I'm not sure what parts people will be interested. Anyway: >> >> >> >> >> >> I'm one of probably a few users of FreeBSD and OpenBSD on multiple >> >> platforms left and I thought I'd share some of my experience with BSD >> on >> >> some of the lesser used platforms. >> >> >> >> I manage a fair number of systems, most of them running FreeBSD on >> 64-bit >> >> Intel, but I probably have more sparc64 and powerpc systems running now >> >> than on i386. I have made it a bit of a specialty of mine to make use >> of >> >> BSD on existing equipment owned by a customer in a Solaris or OS X (or >> >> some >> >> other, older Unix...) environment and migrating their special sauce to >> run >> >> on it (or it could be as simple as setting up a FreeBSD Samba server >> on an >> >> existing G5 Mac they own). >> >> >> >> There are a lot of old SunFire servers running Solaris out there that >> will >> >> take years to die, and a lot of companies aren't excited about buying a >> >> lot >> >> of new hardware and porting their code over to Linux (thank goodness). >> >> When >> >> they start to run into software support and management issues, I've >> found >> >> FreeBSD to be a relatively easy sell. They get an up to date modern OS >> >> with >> >> modern ports available and usually migrating their C code or perl isn't >> >> much of an issue. They get to hold off on buying hardware until there >> is a >> >> direct need (accounting really loves this). >> >> >> >> The advantage for me is that when these companies start looking at new >> >> hardware with the latest Xeon, they're already running FreeBSD 9.3 or >> >> 10.1. >> >> Their code is already ported, the software they're now using is already >> >> available and works. When they move, its basically a recompile and its >> >> good >> >> to go. These customers stick to BSD and forget about Linux or paying >> >> Oracle >> >> more money. Everything just works and they couldn't be happier. >> >> >> >> I've always been interested in the older and more unusual hardware, >> its a >> >> big part of how I found a niche in supporting it on a professional >> level. >> >> Personally I run a sparc64 server, a powerpc G5 Xserve, a Alpha based >> >> DS20L >> >> running OpenBSD and an old 68k Mac running NetBSD, partly for fun and >> >> partly to make sure I can support my clients (ok, the 68k Mac is purely >> >> for >> >> fun). >> >> >> >> I've found a lot of value in FreeBSD's support for older platforms for >> >> getting my foot in the door with a lot of customers. Yes sparc64 isn't >> the >> >> future for FreeBSD but I still think it is very much the present. Its >> not >> >> dead yet, there are a lot of users of this old gear out there if you >> know >> >> where to look. For a company that has never heard of FreeBSD to adopt >> it >> >> because it will extend the life of their hardware I think that is a >> very >> >> powerful thing. >> >> >> >> -Bill Sorenson >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list >> >> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers >> >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to " >> freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org >> >> " >> >> >> >> >> > If you look around, you'll find many core committers are quite active on >> > the ARM and MIPS ports. >> > >> > SPARC became solidly niche when Oracle bought Sun. Your business model >> is >> > commendable, and getting people onto FreeBSD makes me happy. But these >> > businesses are being penny wise, pound foolish. A $1200 Xeon-D server >> > could consolidate (jails) a handful of sun4u systems and pay for itself >> in >> > electric savings within the year. >> > >> > I would love to see SPARC support continue simply because it's a >> gauntlet >> > that can eek out bugs. jhb@ gave a good overview of what is needed for >> > the toolchain. sun4v support would be another nice thing. >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list >> > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers >> > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " >> freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list >> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org >> " >> >