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Date:      Wed, 11 Nov 2015 16:07:35 +0000
From:      "Brian McGovern (bmcgover)" <bmcgover@cisco.com>
To:        Jordan Hubbard <jkh@mail.turbofuzz.com>, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com>
Cc:        Marius Strobl <marius@alchemy.franken.de>, Anna Wilcox <AWilcox@wilcox-tech.com>, "sparc64@freebsd.org" <sparc64@freebsd.org>, "Sean Bruno" <sbruno@freebsd.org>, freebsd-arch <freebsd-arch@freebsd.org>
Subject:   Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64
Message-ID:  <f4d1114833994331bd1fd2273f305abc@XCH-RTP-005.cisco.com>
In-Reply-To: <39947478-4710-47D8-BAB1-FC93979570B6@mail.turbofuzz.com>
References:  <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <2AAC0EF3-528B-476F-BA9C-CDC3004465D0@bsdimp.com> <20151108155501.GA1901@alchemy.franken.de> <563F8385.3090603@freebsd.org> <56417100.5050600@Wilcox-Tech.com> <CANCZdfqO-SdjnonGzRr2H0pDon5oALsDGsmG3KOxPGRVdTbHPQ@mail.gmail.com>, <39947478-4710-47D8-BAB1-FC93979570B6@mail.turbofuzz.com>

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I have to step in on Jordan's side on this one. As a recently-former lab ad=
min (June), we were - and I assume continue to - chucking Sun Sparc hardwar=
e as fast as we can EOL the products which run on the platform, and to the =
best of my knowledge, we haven't bought new gear since Oracle bought Sun. I=
 think I still have an SB150 sitting in a closet collecting dust for the em=
ergency case which is predestined to emergency at some point, but we're not=
 even considering giving the boxes another life as second tier hardware - t=
he x86/64 space offers far superior metrics in terms of price/performance/s=
upport/replacement parts.

This, of course, means that our customers will be eventually follow suit as=
 they do their next round of upgrades. While this means there will be a ton=
 of Sparc64 hardware around at low prices, I have no doubt it'll be a niche=
 community, like BETAMAX, Laserdisc, and HD-DVD before...

If there is someone who loves this platform enough to keep it going single-=
handedly, or nearly so, that's one thing. If the discussion is to divert pr=
oject resources to keep it alive just because its one more platform, I have=
 a laundry list of things that I suspect will have a bigger impact on the b=
roader x86 (and even ARM) community; then again, I expect just about everyo=
ne has such a list.

   -B
________________________________________
From: owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org <owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org>=
 on behalf of Jordan Hubbard <jkh@mail.turbofuzz.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 1:55:38 AM
To: Warner Losh
Cc: Marius Strobl; Anna Wilcox; sparc64@freebsd.org; Sean Bruno; freebsd-ar=
ch
Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about S=
parc64

> On Nov 10, 2015, at 9:54 PM, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
>
> sparc64 is the odd-man out currently. However, even if clang doesn't
> work, the gcc external toolchain works well for other platforms. If it ma=
kes
> sprac64 more viable, then so much the better.

Hi Warner,

I hate to be a voice of pragmatism here when we=92re having so much fun dis=
cussing it from an architectural perspective, but=85

What=92s the actual goal (from a future market relevance perspective) of pu=
tting resources, any resources, into sparc64?  I think that=92s the key que=
stion that needs to get asked and answered here since we all know that:

1) FreeBSD is not NetBSD - it has never historically supported =93x86 alter=
native architectures=94 just because they existed and might be technically =
interesting to port to, there had to be some sort of user community numbers=
 to justify the time and energy expended for the project as a whole (and ev=
en in an all-volunteer driven project, there is simply no such thing as =93=
free=94 - everything has a cost somewhere).

As phk noted earlier in the thread, the ALPHA port was an exception to this=
 rule simply because it was the first-ever 64 bit port for FreeBSD and we k=
new it would buy us some much-needed 64 bit cleanliness, but it also fell o=
ff the support roadmap and into the history books once ALPHA=92s market rel=
evance had clearly ended.

NetBSD/alpha still exists, all the way up to and including NetBSD 7.0, beca=
use their slogan is =93Of course it runs NetBSD.=94   Again, FreeBSD !=3D N=
etBSD.  The emphasis on market share is and always has been a key different=
iator for FreeBSD and part of both its own slogans and mission statement.

2) Sparc64 global market share has declined significantly since Oracle purc=
hased Sun, leaving Oracle and Fujitsu as the only two significant players i=
n that market.  Sure, putting =93old equipment to work=94 is also always a =
tempting objective, but it=92s one that really requires viewing through an =
objective lens since the perspective of someone who owns said "old equipmen=
t" is rather more biased than the perspective of the market as a whole.  Th=
e market as a whole appears to consist (in terms of global server market sh=
are):

HP (x64)                        27.6%
IBM     (x64)           22.9%
DELL (x64)              16.4%
All others (x64):       24% (combined estimate, including Cisco and Huawei)
Total:                  90.9%

[ Source: Gartner ]

That leaves 9.1% for the rest of the server industry, which includes Itaniu=
m, POWER4 and SPARC64.   We can also probably safely assume that even among=
st that tiny 9% pie slice, vendors are focused on the future since their ov=
erall market share is declining (about 5% annually), which begs the questio=
n:  Is FreeBSD/SPARC64 aiming at the T5, even while Oracle themselves are s=
hifting emphasis to lower-cost x64 systems for which FreeBSD is already com=
petitive, or is it really just trying to keep some older collection of incr=
easingly power/performance inefficient (by comparison) alive?

Again, what=92s the long-term goal of supporting this architecture?  The ol=
d adage about =93picking your battles=94 applies here, no matter how enthus=
iastic the small community of remaining SPARC users might be, which is why =
I am risking lightning bolts of wrath from SPARC zealots in even daring to =
ask the question. :-)

Thanks,

- Jordan

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