Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 16:07:35 +0000 From: "Brian McGovern (bmcgover)" <bmcgover@cisco.com> To: Jordan Hubbard <jkh@mail.turbofuzz.com>, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> Cc: Marius Strobl <marius@alchemy.franken.de>, Anna Wilcox <AWilcox@wilcox-tech.com>, "sparc64@freebsd.org" <sparc64@freebsd.org>, "Sean Bruno" <sbruno@freebsd.org>, freebsd-arch <freebsd-arch@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 Message-ID: <f4d1114833994331bd1fd2273f305abc@XCH-RTP-005.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <39947478-4710-47D8-BAB1-FC93979570B6@mail.turbofuzz.com> References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <2AAC0EF3-528B-476F-BA9C-CDC3004465D0@bsdimp.com> <20151108155501.GA1901@alchemy.franken.de> <563F8385.3090603@freebsd.org> <56417100.5050600@Wilcox-Tech.com> <CANCZdfqO-SdjnonGzRr2H0pDon5oALsDGsmG3KOxPGRVdTbHPQ@mail.gmail.com>, <39947478-4710-47D8-BAB1-FC93979570B6@mail.turbofuzz.com>
next in thread | previous in thread | raw e-mail | index | archive | help
I have to step in on Jordan's side on this one. As a recently-former lab ad= min (June), we were - and I assume continue to - chucking Sun Sparc hardwar= e as fast as we can EOL the products which run on the platform, and to the = best of my knowledge, we haven't bought new gear since Oracle bought Sun. I= think I still have an SB150 sitting in a closet collecting dust for the em= ergency case which is predestined to emergency at some point, but we're not= even considering giving the boxes another life as second tier hardware - t= he x86/64 space offers far superior metrics in terms of price/performance/s= upport/replacement parts. This, of course, means that our customers will be eventually follow suit as= they do their next round of upgrades. While this means there will be a ton= of Sparc64 hardware around at low prices, I have no doubt it'll be a niche= community, like BETAMAX, Laserdisc, and HD-DVD before... If there is someone who loves this platform enough to keep it going single-= handedly, or nearly so, that's one thing. If the discussion is to divert pr= oject resources to keep it alive just because its one more platform, I have= a laundry list of things that I suspect will have a bigger impact on the b= roader x86 (and even ARM) community; then again, I expect just about everyo= ne has such a list. -B ________________________________________ From: owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org <owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org>= on behalf of Jordan Hubbard <jkh@mail.turbofuzz.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 1:55:38 AM To: Warner Losh Cc: Marius Strobl; Anna Wilcox; sparc64@freebsd.org; Sean Bruno; freebsd-ar= ch Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about S= parc64 > On Nov 10, 2015, at 9:54 PM, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote: > > sparc64 is the odd-man out currently. However, even if clang doesn't > work, the gcc external toolchain works well for other platforms. If it ma= kes > sprac64 more viable, then so much the better. Hi Warner, I hate to be a voice of pragmatism here when we=92re having so much fun dis= cussing it from an architectural perspective, but=85 What=92s the actual goal (from a future market relevance perspective) of pu= tting resources, any resources, into sparc64? I think that=92s the key que= stion that needs to get asked and answered here since we all know that: 1) FreeBSD is not NetBSD - it has never historically supported =93x86 alter= native architectures=94 just because they existed and might be technically = interesting to port to, there had to be some sort of user community numbers= to justify the time and energy expended for the project as a whole (and ev= en in an all-volunteer driven project, there is simply no such thing as =93= free=94 - everything has a cost somewhere). As phk noted earlier in the thread, the ALPHA port was an exception to this= rule simply because it was the first-ever 64 bit port for FreeBSD and we k= new it would buy us some much-needed 64 bit cleanliness, but it also fell o= ff the support roadmap and into the history books once ALPHA=92s market rel= evance had clearly ended. NetBSD/alpha still exists, all the way up to and including NetBSD 7.0, beca= use their slogan is =93Of course it runs NetBSD.=94 Again, FreeBSD !=3D N= etBSD. The emphasis on market share is and always has been a key different= iator for FreeBSD and part of both its own slogans and mission statement. 2) Sparc64 global market share has declined significantly since Oracle purc= hased Sun, leaving Oracle and Fujitsu as the only two significant players i= n that market. Sure, putting =93old equipment to work=94 is also always a = tempting objective, but it=92s one that really requires viewing through an = objective lens since the perspective of someone who owns said "old equipmen= t" is rather more biased than the perspective of the market as a whole. Th= e market as a whole appears to consist (in terms of global server market sh= are): HP (x64) 27.6% IBM (x64) 22.9% DELL (x64) 16.4% All others (x64): 24% (combined estimate, including Cisco and Huawei) Total: 90.9% [ Source: Gartner ] That leaves 9.1% for the rest of the server industry, which includes Itaniu= m, POWER4 and SPARC64. We can also probably safely assume that even among= st that tiny 9% pie slice, vendors are focused on the future since their ov= erall market share is declining (about 5% annually), which begs the questio= n: Is FreeBSD/SPARC64 aiming at the T5, even while Oracle themselves are s= hifting emphasis to lower-cost x64 systems for which FreeBSD is already com= petitive, or is it really just trying to keep some older collection of incr= easingly power/performance inefficient (by comparison) alive? Again, what=92s the long-term goal of supporting this architecture? The ol= d adage about =93picking your battles=94 applies here, no matter how enthus= iastic the small community of remaining SPARC users might be, which is why = I am risking lightning bolts of wrath from SPARC zealots in even daring to = ask the question. :-) Thanks, - Jordan _______________________________________________ freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-sparc64 To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-sparc64-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"
Want to link to this message? Use this URL: <https://mail-archive.FreeBSD.org/cgi/mid.cgi?f4d1114833994331bd1fd2273f305abc>