From owner-freebsd-python@FreeBSD.ORG Sat May 31 20:55:47 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: python@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C152F69D; Sat, 31 May 2014 20:55:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A21D62CA9; Sat, 31 May 2014 20:55:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: from Alfreds-MacBook-Pro-9.local (c-76-21-10-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [76.21.10.192]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 327C71A3D1F; Sat, 31 May 2014 13:55:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <538A41D5.8020203@freebsd.org> Date: Sat, 31 May 2014 13:55:49 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: python@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Question on virtualenv (python) and FreeBSD References: <538A2A5F.2000601@freebsd.org> <20140531195031.GA854@medusa.sysfault.org> In-Reply-To: <20140531195031.GA854@medusa.sysfault.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Marcus von Appen X-BeenThere: freebsd-python@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD-specific Python issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 31 May 2014 20:55:47 -0000 On 5/31/14 12:50 PM, Marcus von Appen wrote: > On, Sat May 31, 2014, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > >> I have details and a workaround on my blog here (less messy than pasting >> the entire 200+ lines of info into this message): >> http://splbio.wordpress.com/2014/04/19/using-djangosqlalchemy-and-virtualenv-on-freebsd/ >> >> Basically it seems that because we don't by default ship sqlite with >> Python we wind up with this odd situation where the virtualenv'd Python >> can't be used for the apps that I tend to use. >> >> I'm wondering can something be done to make virtualenv work better out >> of the box for people? > Shouldn't that be rephrased to "make virtualenv work better out of the box > with my applications requiring package X?" > > Sorry for nit-picking here. We strip certain parts of a Python default > installation, which others might or might not do. One could create a FAQ, what > to watch or which additional packages are recommended for installation. Right > now, I do not see a huge issue here, though. > > If this is a problem that someone sees as more critical for users, we should > rethink the customized Python installation process, which however also means > that users would have to install more dependencies, when they just want a > simple Python interpreter. No problem with nit-picking here. In the opposite direction I wouldn't say "my", I would say "the majority of people using python in web stacks" which is huge these days. Basically the suggested way of setting up django and sqlalchemy does not work via the HOWTOs for Linux and OS X that are out there without what appears to be somewhat hard to figure out commands to "fixup" the virtualenv install. As far as a huge issue, I actually see one, the recommended way to do apps these days is using these virtual containers, that being virtualenv under python and rvm under ruby. In fact it's the best way to make your apps easily distributable across your org. At the end of the day taking a look at what other OS's are doing and how the HOWTOs are structured would go a long way to getting FreeBSD more traction in the webstack community, this is not only my opnion, but the opinion of the younger people on my team who suggested that I bring this up. They, the younger devs on my team would not have the time nor inclination to debug this and would simply say "lol, I guess it's time to download ubuntu where this howto will work". For them the OS is a tool that should just work, not really what they are all that interested in for day to day. The fact that I get to hack on FreeBSD is a product of FreeBSD being a great platform for these python apps. Sorry for the harsh words, it's not intended, I'm just not sure how to otherwise express the need here for us to support these stacks out of the box. A few questions, but feel free to comments on all: 1) Does the concept of a "python-lite" port make sense where the default is a larger subset of the default python packages you get on other machines? -Or- 2) perhaps we should simply just add sqlite as that seems to be the only blocker I've seen thus far to get this working for the two important web stacks? 3) do we care about making it out-of-the-box easy for people running web services/stacks like django and sqlalchemy+flask on FreeBSD in the recommended fashion? 3) other? thank you Marcus. -Alfred