From nobody Thu Jun 13 15:09:03 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4W0QmY1NCwz5Npvd for ; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 15:09:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-f182.google.com (mail-il1-f182.google.com [209.85.166.182]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4W0QmX3l30z4M70; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 15:09:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed), No valid DKIM" header.from=freebsd.org (policy=none); spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of carpeddiem@gmail.com designates 209.85.166.182 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=carpeddiem@gmail.com Received: by mail-il1-f182.google.com with SMTP id e9e14a558f8ab-36dd56cf5f5so4246795ab.3; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 08:09:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1718291355; x=1718896155; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=6rDkuLmIP1m9WvZ01QGW1GPgpdqU9sL1o0GZHIOSMIM=; b=h9hMbYmrybs0mXnKf83YuXc/lI7nAizQOG0N1rWcjGKjq2ksbahozbmXrbRwLUjlx0 4CHvpOAWC4OKTZ1WEJvfp6JVYCEhgl3wWZpBe9s50ev1U8lvKdcLU7ur8sOJwyr2tl8R uwyIRO6ZQea8bPynTZwYHq2ZCpg7Pv/LuRA0m6TFK/Od1Kxh10XWxBKZj46478eSeymA vAi+SWfR/DikF3k5BwyalEepZ/pGVz/6hz0sdwDHHBhd4QhHV0h0Dw7TmwccBs3dIVAf MU/jpYunjmIrm/iVUWufGVPS6Wqos/XNfen3Bfw0wRfsd/SDiUxH4q7e4rChGGOB84FN S8jg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yw9KWXjAcynhZRBDgGvrTlyK9v4xK7GWtv8QX03rXIkr5SxF+56 1oaSQ3NhHzBtGqqv/LknmuNuoNMdZDoqQSaihGJFLXhTvKLHxknc3Rg59ttfF10KDyhZ0atg01j s6sc+v8deg2/C0y+KB/sny+71wx7QVw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHGPBqRJbeqwQIMtQkP8es11SsY4mJQqhVqd8pALLRfTbY+OdX+pKZi+Bn1Y0Q20gEwzQRc/ORgr1yiNY69dlc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:218b:b0:375:aafe:72de with SMTP id e9e14a558f8ab-375cd1659b9mr54777185ab.16.1718291355036; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 08:09:15 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Ed Maste Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2024 11:09:03 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Removing "CMOS clock set to UTC" question To: "Constantine A. Murenin" Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.78 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.88)[-0.881]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[emaste@freebsd.org,carpeddiem@gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17:c]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[freebsd.org : SPF not aligned (relaxed), No valid DKIM,none]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[carpeddiem]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[209.85.166.182:from]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[209.85.166.182:from]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[emaste@freebsd.org,carpeddiem@gmail.com]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4W0QmX3l30z4M70 On Wed, 12 Jun 2024 at 14:14, Constantine A. Murenin wrote: > > On Wed, 12 Jun 2024 at 11:23, Ed Maste wrote: > > > > Our installer asks (via tzsetup): > > > > > Is this machine's CMOS clock set to UTC? If it is set to local time, > > > or you don't know, please choose NO here! > > > > I've heard many reports of new users being confused by this question > > when installing FreeBSD for the first time. I don't think it provides > > much value; it is a minor convenience for dual-booting with Windows > > but imposes a cost on everyone installing FreeBSD. It is trivial to > > configure the system to use local time in the system's real-time clock > > by creating /etc/wall_cmos_clock. Other operating systems do not ask, > > they just default to local time (Windows) or UTC (everyone else). > > > > I've proposed removing the question from bsdinstall in > > https://reviews.freebsd.org/D45569. > > Perhaps the confusion arises from the implied default being "NO" > instead of a "YES"? There are several sources of confusion I think --Mark Delany's response did a good job of highlighting them. > In a way, the proposed patch actually both changes the default and > removes the question. Which may end up being more confusing unless > expressly advertised as such. The default behaviour in FreeBSD (ignoring tzsetup or bsdinstall) is to store UTC in the RTC. Creating /etc/wall_cmos_clock configures the system to use local time instead. tzsetup certainly implies that answering NO is the default choice (by recommending that choice if you don't know), which creates the file and uses local time. > If the intention is to simply change the implied default, maybe that's > exactly what should be done instead? E.g., move the "don't know" > category into a "YES" suggestion. Making it "If you don't know, choose YES" is probably better, but the question is still troublesome. As another reply in this thread pointed out, the user may not know what time is in the RTC during installation, which is what is being asked but is not actually what the installer needs to know.