From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sat Feb 9 18:32:30 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5EFC14C56F9 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2019 18:32:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from amvandemore@gmail.com) Received: from mail-it1-x131.google.com (mail-it1-x131.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B4433754B0; Sat, 9 Feb 2019 18:32:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from amvandemore@gmail.com) Received: by mail-it1-x131.google.com with SMTP id f18so5946688itb.5; Sat, 09 Feb 2019 10:32:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=4arVkw4tWiizx/FglRWcDSqkqs2TE62m+t+USTSYiF8=; b=fWLRe3Y9qjPOsAGjAEw102XWLDlbHcfsM6vgjJ1NwUgLVmxpEtA5g+9H7Z+JKXMSst CtD/+ZsxKmnImPFxcPMuaC1rcl5ucQMqDvp/aRIPHMnhiU2xhpS4aIVvVQ2lcKumj7PP JOehxjHp7YiXj64DkhEkZmGPqwVc1/+gfWqHSMvA4qCvaHZWkY9zS+/SJqCQG3GZI7dE YokC5G2qFJbGjSjEg//UGOHeGGO1xnWO7rbj5z/jkn4mZzNxbFfg4lCb8uapZi9asfud ZW/bgZzvd4AEowjg0OiYc+j1JGdU9TEebcoEAaJEeW037zeBu9kDUWZwFC06ewtw8mWY vQdQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4arVkw4tWiizx/FglRWcDSqkqs2TE62m+t+USTSYiF8=; b=DzkOUaWHiMuba6hN0cTmOBGzqs3iQeaTrAAit+fU2RHaDMIJv0wry7q3MYyEHbvIkP d4t+35gTJgrpbTN6Wd0EcnEeOCe8blRZ7bB8laW2XAasJkeCp3HPmSXzSDqA3MAo6i7h bnbSYX9lQdJTS35zKq9s7QzKN5tCydoQZxuuRr3GqIK6Z7YskmrYuJ5PwfI/ByKRqp0h Z6Asz9A6Kql66OgWYCIlR2oU4xecroGDNxszCiMsPiiHtXhqTvQhHpTqCF24/6uXvlLB IGyWm6Djrdlw7e3sIPEvN4b5ABiz9IUdPokARKHCp8IJCc/nv24LliSWt2osKhZFnxlq /hPA== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuaTehDF74r12aAWQf1OUoaoHBzj8EuimWh6jjfmy88rOcbYPcdE qZtYUfiorIIUBCVqfS9IKt59++IH6q35PYO1aek= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IavtYQulEaOs9t8+OOABvGCdoWQwAbwIYJ67T3J6qNnifgbhuIHBJJJMBoRU2hpO9V2zhQX1YeuuSmYxIHrbio= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:651a:: with SMTP id z26mr8526607iob.72.1549737147864; Sat, 09 Feb 2019 10:32:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Adam Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2019 12:32:16 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: nosh init system To: Enji Cooper Cc: Wojciech Puchar , Sidju , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" , Conrad Meyer X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: B4433754B0 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=fWLRe3Y9; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of amvandemore@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::131 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=amvandemore@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.24 / 15.00]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.71)[-0.712,0]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; IP_SCORE(-2.52)[ip: (-8.13), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-2.45), asn: 15169(-1.95), country: US(-0.07)]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[1.3.1.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2019 18:32:30 -0000 On Sat, Feb 9, 2019 at 11:57 AM Enji Cooper wrote: > On Feb 9, 2019, at 09:32, Wojciech Puchar wrote: > > >> pid 2 and reap zombies. We're missing a half-decent service > >> management system. On Linux, systemd performs both roles. On > >> FreeBSD, init(8) serves one role, and rc(8) is a tiny subset of a real > >> service management system like systemd. > > > > systemd is overcomplex crap. And a reason many people migrated to > FreeBSD from linux. > > > >> > >> (I think the piece we would consider replacing or supplementing would > >> be rc(8). Part of that might be migrating some responsibilities from > >> pid 1 to pid 2, such as spawning gettys. I don't hold strong opinions > >> about that.) > > > > this make sense but with spawning gettys left to init. > > > > > > what do you want to improve in rc? starting services in parallel doesn'= t > seem to be major problem to make i think. > > Starting and stopping services based on logical events and =E2=80=9Crun l= evels=E2=80=9D, > apart from what devd handles with hardware events is what comes to mind f= or > me. > > rc(8) is also incredibly fragile when it comes to starting or stopping > services beyond first boot, or when dealing with =E2=80=9Coptional=E2=80= =9D services, like > nis/yp. I tried to clean this up a few years ago, but it=E2=80=99s not cl= ose to my > ideal design (it feels like a bubblegum and duct tape solution). > "incredibly fragile" indicates there is some common, easily triggered issue with it. Can you elaborate please? I stop and restart base services and others on a regular basis and don't see an issue there although I also haven't use NIS for some time. --=20 Adam