Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 22:03:06 +0000 (GMT) From: "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" <root@pukruppa.de> To: Ryan Masse <rmasse@mastery.ca> Cc: FreeBSD-Questions <freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG> Subject: Re: Certification Message-ID: <20010704214626.R47622-100000@localhost.de> In-Reply-To: <014301c104b3$8ad8b6c0$3200000a@Intranet>
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On Wed, 4 Jul 2001, Ryan Masse wrote: > Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 14:02:50 -0400 > From: Ryan Masse <rmasse@mastery.ca> > To: "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" <root@pukruppa.de> > Cc: FreeBSD-Questions <freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG> > Subject: Re: Certification > > sorry in advance if this message was received a second time. > > > > > Hi, > > > > it seems, I am writing from the other side of the ocean > > (Germany to be exact) and do not completely understand this > > discussion. But for professional reasons I am interested. > > > > So I would be happy if you answered these two questions: > > 1) Are there really any working online-courses for anything, > > which will give you a certification - > > if true: could you give me an example? > > 2) (still if true:) do they work completely automagically or > > are there human beings involved who control the stuff? > > > > Actually i work IT for a company who has a training platform (not html > based) which installs and runs over cd-rom,lan,intranet, and/or internet in > which it delivers interactive media accross one of the above methods of > delivery. I know everybody that has seen a cbt training package laughs at > its performance, design and over functionality but this package is truly > workable into any environment. It is totally customizable with builtin > testing, reporting and certificate assigning cababilities. Asside from the > sales pitch no intervention is needed and some form of this *could be used > to successfully deploy such a certification program. > > for more info on the above check out one of our websites; > http://www.masterycanada.com > http://www.masterytech.com Thanks for your hint, Ryan. In my opinion a good course should consist of different parts: (1) some sort of theoretical lecture (2) practical examples/exercises under supervision (3) self-controlled exercises (4) exchange of experiences (5) some sort of test to proof your advance (6) ...(? - one never knows) Now I can see an online-course as part (3) or (5) of a curriculum. A free and community-proven online-course would make every newbie happy and could be useful to any professional IT-Trainer as well. The latter would earn his money with (1), (2), (4) and (6). So only one question remains: Is there a market for FreeBSD-admins (remember I am writing from Germany)? Uli. > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 11:46:54 -0500 > > > From: Bruce Pea <pea@andrewpea.com> > > > To: tedm@toybox.placo.com > > > Cc: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG > > > Subject: RE: Certification > > > > > > > > > < I apologize to everyone for the first copy of this post that > > > went out. I pulled the trigger before I hit spell check. > > > > > > > Ted, > > > > > > I have thought about the certification issue for a long time and > > > I think you raise some very good points. > > > > > > The reason I never took the time to get either Novell or > > > Microsoft's certifications was mainly because, after looking > > > over the material, I didn't think they were teaching me much of > > > anything new that I didn't already know. I couldn't see any > > > value in spending the money just to be able to say I had the > > > certification nor was my ego ever in the > > > need of those kinds of strokes... already have a bunch of > > > letters after my name (thanks mom and dad for paying tuition all > > > those years). > > > > > > However, I think a rigorous, well written, and carefully > > > prepared FBSD course would be very well received by FBSD users. > > > I've been setting up and administering networks for fourteen > > > years. Started out on Netware, migrated to NT, and finally found > > > my way to FreeBSD. I have several versions of Greg's book, a > > > copy of your book and a copy of the handbook that I devour and > > > pour over time and again not to mention the huge stack of > > > O'Reilly and other assorted books and manuals covering general > > > UNIX topics I find indispensable. I've been setting up and > > > administering FreeBSD long enough to feel quit confident and > > > capable of my skills yet I have this nagging feeling that there > > > is much to learn about UNIX... I don't think I'm in the 'zen > > > zone' yet and I'd like to get there. So, if someone created a > > > real 'meat and potatoes' FreeBSD course I'd be the first to > > > throw my money down and sign up. > > > > > > As far as accreditation goes perhaps there could be some sort of > > > 'open source accreditation'. What I mean by that is just as open > > > source code is subjected to the scrutiny of the world, why not > > > create a FBSD course and let the FBSD community bless it? > > > Perhaps we could create an accreditation 'core team' to review > > > and approve the curriculum. People who want to take the course > > > could pay a couple of hundred dollars for the training that > > > could be used to pay someone to administer the program. After > > > completing the course we could give them a certificate. > > > > > > It would be much more meaningful and significant to me to pass a > > > course that my fellow FreeBSD peers and sysadmins considered > > > valuable and credible than to take some other course that had > > > some other 'official accreditation' just to get another piece of > > > paper. I think a FreeBSD course is a great idea, but *really* > > > teach me something. Don't just do it to have a certification > > > program. > > > > > > Bruce Pea > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** > > > > > > On 7/3/2001 at 11:16 PM Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > > > > > >I'd like to start a discussion about this topic as I've been > > > >pondering a few questions related to this myself. > > > > > > > >To start with it's been my observation that certifications are > > > >desired for one of 3 general reasons: > > > > > > > >a) Employment: employers want people to have them to make it > > > easier to weed > > > >out > > > >a flood of applicants, candidates want them to be able to apply > > > for certain > > > >jobs. > > > > > > > >b) Personal Pride: people want the certification so they can > > > make their > > > >pedegree > > > >look bigger, have one more certificate on the wall, etc. > > > > > > > >c) Education: Students hope getting the certification will help > > > them learn > > > >about the thing they want to get certified on. > > > > > > > >Now, I would speculate that for BSD, reason number 1 is > > > nonexistent, and > > > >for > > > >reason number 2 the type of people that want another notch > > > aren't going to > > > >be the type that want it from BSD. That leaves reason number > > > 3, the > > > >education part. > > > > > > > >Now, there's some certification programs that do a fairly good > > > job of the > > > >education part, the Cisco CNE is probably one. Most though are > > > not aimed > > > >at > > > >educating, instead they are political. (note that this has > > > nothing to do > > > >with how "hard" the certification is to get) For example, the > > > MCSE from > > > >Microsoft is most definitely not about education (apologies to > > > the MCSE's > > > >in > > > >the crowd here) as the materials I've reviewed on MCSE's are > > > rather > > > >outdated > > > >when it comes to the networking part in particular. For > > > example they only > > > >even started discussing classless IP addressing last year in > > > the official > > > >MCSE curriculum. That certification is more about Microsoft > > > being able to > > > >use the fact that it has a certification as a marketing plus to > > > sell more > > > >Windows. I still do have respect for the folks that get it but > > > mainly > > > >respect at the fact that they went to the trouble and completed > > > it, not > > > >that > > > >I thought it was particularly hard for most of them to get. > > > Even the Cisco > > > >CNA is like this, it teaches little and is mainly there to > > > teach people > > > >what > > > >a router looks like, it's more about advertising the Cisco name > > > than > > > >anything else. > > > > > > > >With FreeBSD, there is no central company with an axe to grind > > > to see the > > > >world filled with CFE's (Certified FreeBSD Engineers? ;-)) so > > > your not > > > >going > > > >to see the funding from anyone for a "vanity" or "marketing" > > > CFE > > > >certification program. Instead, any certification program that > > > anyone puts > > > >together is going to have to be aimed at reason number 3 - the > > > education > > > >part. At least, that's the reasoning that I keep coming up > > > with. > > > > > > > >Now, once a CFE program DOES exist and has critical mass, why > > > then > > > >certainly > > > >it would be able to address reasons number 1 and 2 as well as > > > >marketing/political reasons. But to get there a certification > > > program > > > >would > > > >need to start out shooting for reason number 3. > > > > > > > >So, now we have kind of a "were we need to be at" premise, you > > > next need to > > > >address the issue of accreditation. All accreditation really > > > is, boiled > > > >down, is a blessing by someone who everyone agrees is _the_ > > > authority on > > > >the > > > >topic. > > > > > > > >An unaccredited certification program is worthless. You see > > > these all the > > > >time - for example our local community college has loads of > > > >"certifications" > > > >they will issue in Computer Information Technology but nothing > > > in that > > > >program is transferrable to anything else because none of it is > > > accredited. > > > >They ALSO have real, live CompSci courses that ARE accredited > > > and thus can > > > >be transferred. > > > > > > > >With the vendor-certifications, like the CNE and the MCSE, the > > > vendors > > > >themselves do the accreditation, or at least are supposed to. > > > > > > > >With FreeBSD, once again the lack of a single central authority > > > on the > > > >project means that a vendor of a FreeBSD certification program > > > is not going > > > >to be able to get accreditation on any kind of CFE program. In > > > short, > > > >_who_ > > > >out there is _the_ authority that can say whether some vendor's > > > FreeBSD > > > >certification program is good or not? > > > > > > > >There's lots of people out there, even myself, who could > > > _write_ a FreeBSD > > > >curriculum and certification program. But without a single > > > FreeBSD body to > > > >bless it, it seems to me that it's worthless. for example, if > > > New Horizons > > > >hired someone like me to write a FreeBSD certification program, > > > how would > > > >you as a student be able to trust that the information the > > > program is > > > >teaching is even correct? > > > > > > > > > > > >Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com > > > >Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide > > > >Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com > > > > > > > > > > > >>-----Original Message----- > > > >>From: owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG > > > >>[mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of David > > > Caldwell > > > >>Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 9:34 PM > > > >>To: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG > > > >>Subject: Certification > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>Is there a certification program for any of the BSD Unixes? > > > >> > > > >>I have seen them for Linux and for Sun Solaris, as well as the > > > >>various other > > > >>flavors of Unix. Will there be or is there one for BSD? > > > >> > > > >>David Caldwell > > > >>dns at knology dot net > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > > >>with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the > > > message > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > > >with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message > > > > > > > *--------------------------------------* > > | www.pukruppa.de www.2000d.de | > > | Wuppertal - Germany | > > *--------------------------------------* > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message > *--------------------------------------* | www.pukruppa.de www.2000d.de | | Wuppertal - Germany | *--------------------------------------* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message
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