From nobody Sat Dec 10 23:48:35 2022 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4NV4NN0wqsz4knvw for ; Sat, 10 Dec 2022 23:48:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yuri@aetern.org) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4NV4NM5Ytsz4Bs1 for ; Sat, 10 Dec 2022 23:48:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yuri@aetern.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id F28CC5C00A5; Sat, 10 Dec 2022 18:48:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 10 Dec 2022 18:48:49 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aetern.org; h=cc :cc:content-type:date:date:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:sender:subject :subject:to:to; s=fm1; t=1670716129; x=1670802529; bh=Qnoh5jHHBi rrh1vD9GOc7os8z2EBxh8UHlFs3AjEeeg=; b=Ury4aI4VqFGB5LrLK6ZJ6gNANI iuKECirWRY/eHZtKUyYOVroEa7BZXr9Xk3J0fc+HXADf2nDus2jcMzp0CiwtphG1 FV1HbIl2KL8QQ5msufJaACEh1v/rXzt9JdiePd1AAvD8KAB+fJJgSC+IJdw0g8sG VyUZxc6kp1ACskRhVqUE4zCFbuC4fGIVr5L2IW3RLyYeHuzywD56EEPBkGnC5uvt vaiVeRKYcKQbBHCUFbmf2i4+aDuZ+E5r2BmN6eHSyMRErBi3PJQSdsKo1UxQ9ENM aEl67NfvRmF1VgxejzD6tEaRIhJlMXNccWnWHuSPrOEg8KbRvQKCH5Qvvz8Q== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-type:date:date:feedback-id :feedback-id:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id :mime-version:references:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to :x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s= fm2; t=1670716129; x=1670802529; bh=Qnoh5jHHBirrh1vD9GOc7os8z2EB xh8UHlFs3AjEeeg=; b=puHgKQk4B+6dOEAFfqmOWkt7QU0UZyEawMHoU7fFhHAA h3lANHve9/U/OC2cUynQ9kvdwwVctZbQH0UWxm9ExLq+1yQW+pdnYRMzXtQ9ndd1 yaX0px4FUlDm5Mev1EfRMX1gsfMxfIXsm85UStJJMsgjQNYUCZe4NpwQCIlFKQG4 K81z+GipcArlc5PHAlRxe5/snWS1gLDXfXDeNbcHrPd+Vxu5neCJIJOP4iOmdMb9 Y6deduP+tuiP6bMJH13eFqLWPubjPp7VUaLkta/QScDEKzGYmTYYotjkgnDZv7J7 X/fmaNz3kRFjLyLvEBcl4NL1GQ4QstyDo+7AKmOFDA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvhedrvdehgdduhecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpefhkfgtggfuffgjvefvfhfosegrtdhmrehhtdejnecuhfhrohhmpegjuhhrihcu oeihuhhrihesrggvthgvrhhnrdhorhhgqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpefgfeeugeegle evueeuveefleejgfetgeelgeetveejgfeluedvvedthffhkeeuteenucffohhmrghinhep fhhrvggvsghsugdrohhrghdpnhhimhhnvghtrdgrshhnrdgruhenucevlhhushhtvghruf hiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpeihuhhrihesrggvthgvrhhnrdho rhhg X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i0d79475b:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Sat, 10 Dec 2022 18:48:47 -0500 (EST) From: Yuri Message-Id: <3FDAA730-5328-4076-8E98-21D074F77BC8@aetern.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8C6C0224-1F02-4641-8958-AFA772A414C6" List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3731.200.110.1.12\)) Subject: Re: 12.4 disc 1 iso is really large Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 00:48:35 +0100 In-Reply-To: <30F66AE4-985D-48E1-8EE7-DE4FF712CB75@gushi.org> Cc: Ian Smith , Polytropon , "Kevin P. Neal" , Steve O'Hara-Smith , "questions@freebsd.org" To: "Dan Mahoney (Ports)" References: <4AC6140B-2927-46C4-8405-18FA872DEAB5@gushi.org> <20221209050452.40918a6bcccb953c197ecec6@sohara.org> <20221210072243.9109d9c9.freebsd@edvax.de> <6B0B7DD7-8562-4E77-8809-768DB6E8ADFC@nimnet.asn.au> <30F66AE4-985D-48E1-8EE7-DE4FF712CB75@gushi.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3731.200.110.1.12) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4NV4NM5Ytsz4Bs1 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:19151, ipnet:66.111.4.0/24, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --Apple-Mail=_8C6C0224-1F02-4641-8958-AFA772A414C6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On 10. 12. 2022., at 23:58, Dan Mahoney (Ports) = wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Dec 10, 2022, at 11:47 AM, Ian Smith wrote: >>=20 >> On 10 December 2022 5:22:43 pm AEDT, Polytropon > wrote: >>=20 >>> On Fri, 9 Dec 2022 23:48:30 -0500, Kevin P. Neal wrote: >>=20 >>>> On Fri, Dec 09, 2022 at 05:04:52AM +0000, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >>=20 >>>>> On Thu, 8 Dec 2022 22:58:01 -0600 >>>>> "Dan Mahoney (Ports)" wrote: >>=20 >>>>>> All, >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I=E2=80=99m just noticing that the standard FreeBSD iso is some = 959 >>> megs: >>>>>>=20 >>> = http://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/releases/ISO-IMAGES/12.4/FreeBSD-12.4-R= ELEASE-amd64-disc1.iso >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Is there something in the release notes that basically implies >>> we no >>>>>> longer expect people to burn things to actual discs? >>=20 >>>>> You need a DVD - it's been some time since it fitted on a CD >>> >>>>> I still remember doing installs from floppies. >>=20 >>>> So... what's the point of the "disc1" image that today requires a >>> DVD if >>>> there's also a "dvd" image made to be burned to a DVD? >>=20 >>> I've been asking this ("complaining about it") in the past. >>> As it seems, the regular 650 MB / 700 MG size of a CD can >>> no longer hold a FreeBSD installation... which is strange, >>> because if it would be possible to reduce the amount of >>> packages (!) on the disc, it would be suitable for use >>=20 >> Sorry, but there are no packages at all on disc1, or the equivalently = sized memstick. Only the dvd1 image has any packages, 932 in ~2.2GB=20 >>=20 >>> with CD media again, as it was in the past: The classic >>> "4 CDs approach" of older FreeBSD versions contained: >>>=20 >>> CD #1 with system installation and _some_ packages >>>=20 >>> CD #2 with a live system >>>=20 >>> CDs #3 and #4 with all other packages >>>=20 >>> So CD #1 could always be used to install a working OS, and >>> you could also install some packages (like X, Midnigh Commander, >>> joe, vim, and other useful stuff). For the ultimate selection >>> of packages, discs #3 and #4 would be used (if needed), ot >>> the installation could continue via Internet. However, a >>> complete offline installation was possible. >>=20 >> Indeed. Trev Roydhouse used to mail me his hand-me-down 4 CD Walnut = Creek sets; we had 2.0.5 (?), 2.2.6 which enabled the nimnet.asn.au = server in '98, later 3.something, 4.5 ... >>=20 >> OTOH that was an AMD 586 140MHz box with 2GB RAM and a 4GB hdd, later = 20GB, with CDR later CD-RW, with 1 dialout and 3 dialup modems. >>=20 >> Nostalgia ain't what it used to be. >>=20 >> I've been working on retrieving the offline install possibility for = months, and managed with some tricks and patches to get 'bsdconfig = packages' working on the 12.3 dvd1 image to install X, KDE and some = utilities, all offline - but it's considered a weird thing to want to do = these days ... what "third world connectivity"? >>=20 >>> Strange thing: The "bootonly" and "minimal install" images >>> intended for use with USB media _could_ fit on a CD. >>=20 >> Still can, bootonly.iso is ~355MB, mini-memstick is ~360MB. >>=20 >> But full installers, even without any packages, really can't; = everything has swollen that much. Here are sizes >1MiB on (amd64) = disc1: >>=20 >> 2 /bin >> 2 /etc >> 3 /var >> 8 /sbin >> 13 /lib >> 156 /boot >> 812 /usr >> 993 / >>=20 >> 3 /usr/libexec >> 19 /usr/sbin >> 20 /usr/lib >> 40 /usr/bin >> 127 /usr/share >> 605 /usr/freebsd-dist >> 812 /usr >>=20 >> /usr/freebsd-dist has, all as .txz: >> tests 13 >> kernel 44 >> ports 45 >> lib32 62 >> kernel-dbg 83 >> src 171 >> base 191 >> total 605MB >=20 > I still rely on booting from CD on a regular basis. There are USB = cdroms in all my datacenters, and =E2=80=9Cburn an iso to disc=E2=80=9D = still feels way more useful to tell remote hands how to do than trying = to explain how to image an iso onto a memory stick (which can vary based = on formatting and OS). >=20 > Much as I love my idracs, at the day job we still have a number of = older systems limping along doing Important Internet Things where that = reinstall use-case matters. (How I got them all upgraded to current = versions of FreeBSD may be my BSDCan talk). >=20 > CDs are still the lowest common denominator. >=20 > Not all of the above freebsd-dist files are equal. You need kernel = and base to get a running system. Everything else can be gotten later. >=20 > Ports basically requires an active internet connection to build = anything =E2=80=94 putting it on the disc is largely pointless. = Portsnap is in base. >=20 > Src is outdated as soon as it=E2=80=99s extracted in most cases, and = user education as to =E2=80=9Chere=E2=80=99s how you get the source if = you need it=E2=80=9D would serve us better. >=20 > Kernel-dbg is also not the kind of thing most people are going to need = without having net access, but I could see if being useful for doing = things like bringing up new boards, lab systems, special configurations. >=20 > So =E2=80=94 if we eliminated src, and just started teaching people = that if you want to build things from src, you should get them from git, = or the src.tar.xz on the ftp site, things would still fit easily for a = while to come. Agreed on ports and src just eating up the space on ISO without any real = purpose; however kernel-dbg is useful to have meaningful backtraces in = case of problems (and not much use for working on new hardware without = src), users should be strongly advised to have it installed IMO.= --Apple-Mail=_8C6C0224-1F02-4641-8958-AFA772A414C6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On 10. 12. = 2022., at 23:58, Dan Mahoney (Ports) <freebsd@gushi.org> = wrote:



On Dec 10, 2022, at 11:47 AM, Ian Smith = <smithi@nimnet.asn.au> wrote:

On 10 = December 2022 5:22:43 pm AEDT, Polytropon <freebsd@edvax.de> = wrote:

On Fri, 9 Dec 2022 23:48:30 -0500, Kevin P. Neal = wrote:

On Fri, Dec 09, 2022 at 05:04:52AM = +0000, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote:

On Thu, 8 Dec 2022 22:58:01 = -0600
"Dan Mahoney (Ports)" <freebsd@gushi.org> = wrote:

All,

I=E2=80=99m just noticing that the standard = FreeBSD iso is some = 959
megs:

http://ftp.freebs= d.org/pub/FreeBSD/releases/ISO-IMAGES/12.4/FreeBSD-12.4-RELEASE-amd64-disc= 1.iso

Is there something in the release notes that basically = implies
we no
longer = expect people to burn things to actual = discs?

You need a DVD - it's been some = time since it fitted on a = CD
<sigh>
I still remember doing installs = from floppies.

So... what's the point of the "disc1" image that today = requires a
DVD if
there's = also a "dvd" image made to be burned to a = DVD?

I've been asking this ("complaining about it") in the past.
As = it seems, the regular 650 MB / 700 MG size of a CD can
no longer hold = a FreeBSD installation... which is strange,
because if it would be = possible to reduce the amount of
packages (!) on the disc, it would = be suitable for use

Sorry, = but there are no packages at all on disc1, or the equivalently sized = memstick.  Only the dvd1 image has any packages, 932 in ~2.2GB 

with CD media = again, as it was in the past: The classic
"4 CDs approach" of older = FreeBSD versions contained:

CD #1 with system installation = and _some_ packages

CD #2 with a live = system

CDs #3 and #4 with all other packages

So CD #1 = could always be used to install a working OS, and
you could also = install some packages (like X, Midnigh Commander,
joe, vim, and other = useful stuff). For the ultimate selection
of packages, discs #3 and = #4 would be used (if needed), ot
the installation could continue via = Internet. However, a
complete offline installation was = possible.

Indeed. =  Trev Roydhouse used to mail me his hand-me-down 4 CD Walnut Creek = sets; we had 2.0.5 (?), 2.2.6 which enabled the nimnet.asn.au server in '98, later = 3.something, 4.5 ...

OTOH = that was an AMD 586 140MHz box with 2GB RAM and a 4GB hdd, later 20GB, = with CDR later CD-RW, with 1 dialout and 3 dialup modems.

Nostalgia ain't what it used to = be.

I've been working on = retrieving the offline install possibility for months, and managed with = some tricks and patches to get 'bsdconfig packages' working on the 12.3 = dvd1 image to install X, KDE and some utilities, all offline - but it's = considered a weird thing to want to do these days ... what "third world = connectivity"?

Strange thing: The "bootonly" and "minimal install" = images
intended for use with USB media _could_ fit on a = CD.

Still can, bootonly.iso = is ~355MB, mini-memstick is ~360MB.

But = full installers, even without any packages, really can't; everything has = swollen that much.  Here are sizes >1MiB on (amd64) = disc1:

2 =      /bin
2 =      /etc
3 =      /var
8 =      /sbin
13 =    /lib
156 =  /boot
812  /usr
993  /

3 =     /usr/libexec
19 =   /usr/sbin
20 =   /usr/lib
40 =   /usr/bin
127 = /usr/share
605 = /usr/freebsd-dist
812 = /usr

/usr/freebsd-dist has, = all as .txz:
tests =            13
kernel =         44
ports =           45
lib32 =           62
kernel-dbg 83
src =             17= 1
base =          191
total 605MB

I still rely on booting from CD on a regular basis.  There = are USB cdroms in all my datacenters, and =E2=80=9Cburn an iso to = disc=E2=80=9D still feels way more useful to tell remote hands how to do = than trying to explain how to image an iso onto a memory stick (which = can vary based on formatting and OS).

Much as I love my idracs, at the day job we still have a number = of older systems limping along doing Important Internet Things where = that reinstall use-case matters.  (How I got them all upgraded to = current versions of FreeBSD may be my BSDCan talk).

CDs are still the lowest common = denominator.

Not all of the above freebsd-dist files are = equal.  You need kernel and base to get a running system. =  Everything else can be gotten later.

Ports basically requires an active internet connection to build = anything =E2=80=94 putting it on the disc is largely pointless. =  Portsnap is in base.

Src is outdated as soon as it=E2=80=99s = extracted in most cases, and user education as to =E2=80=9Chere=E2=80=99s = how you get the source if you need it=E2=80=9D would serve us = better.

Kernel-dbg is also not the kind of thing most people are going to = need without having net access, but I could see if being useful for = doing things like bringing up new boards, lab systems, special = configurations.

So =E2=80=94 if we eliminated src, and just = started teaching people that if you want to build things from src, you = should get them from git, or the src.tar.xz on the ftp site, things = would still fit easily for a while to = come.

Agreed on ports and src = just eating up the space on ISO without any real purpose; however = kernel-dbg is useful to have meaningful backtraces in case of problems = (and not much use for working on new hardware without src), users should = be strongly advised to have it installed IMO.
= --Apple-Mail=_8C6C0224-1F02-4641-8958-AFA772A414C6--