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([2607:fb90:fcc:1206:5533:c7b5:d523:cec9]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w185sm8901734pfb.135.2019.02.09.19.29.18 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 09 Feb 2019 19:29:19 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: nosh init system From: Enji Cooper X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16C104) In-Reply-To: <201902092334.x19NYtZe036559@slippy.cwsent.com> Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2019 19:29:17 -0800 Cc: Wojciech Puchar , Sidju , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" , Conrad Meyer Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <201902092334.x19NYtZe036559@slippy.cwsent.com> To: Cy Schubert X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 2ACF9920C4 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=MKPoOR02; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of yaneurabeya@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::62d as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=yaneurabeya@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.08 / 15.00]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.89)[-0.892,0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE(-2.68)[ip: (-8.92), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-2.46), asn: 15169(-1.95), country: US(-0.07)]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[d.2.6.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2019 03:29:22 -0000 > On Feb 9, 2019, at 15:34, Cy Schubert wrote: ... > I've been using NIS on FreeBSD for a couple of decades and still using=20 > it on my network. Except for one bad patch a few years ago it's been=20 > 100% solid. There are no startup or shutdown issues. My example of yp was probably a bad example for others to glom on to. Some real examples are netif vs routing, samba=E2=80=99s myriad of scripts, o= r restarting rpcbind (which doesn=E2=80=99t trigger a restart of mountd, nfs= d, etc). In the latter case, one can argue that the services can be made mor= e fault tolerant to their dependencies not being available (that=E2=80=99s o= ne part of a solution), however, the example of netif vs routing is much, mu= ch harder to solve without having an external service manager/monitor. > I don't see what's so "incredibly fragile" about rc(8). That's not to=20 > say there aren't better solutions, like SMF. >=20 > Where rc(8) falls down is any port or a customer's (user of FreeBSD) rc=20= > script could fail hosing the boot or worse hosing the system*. Where a=20 > solution like SMF solves the problem is that should a service which=20 > other services depend on fail, only that branch of the startup tree=20 > would fail. In that scenario, if a service fails but sshd start, a=20 > sysadmin would still be able to login remotely to resolve the problem.=20 > So in this regard rc(8) is at a disadvantage. This is another item that yes, rc doesn=E2=80=99t solve properly. Good call (= I didn=E2=80=99t notice this shortcoming). > We could address the above paragraph by starting sshd earlier during=20 > boot thereby allowing the opportunity to fix remotely. Ehhhhhhh... this is probably not that easy. > Regarding SMF, it could be implemented by rc(8) invoking smf in similar=20= > fashion as Solaris does -- Solaris invokes it through inittab(5) -- or=20 > it could through a special yet to be determined entry in ttys(5). The=20 > Solaris approach is init(8)'s sole job, through the inittab(5) entry,=20 > is to restart smf, while smf does the rest. I prefer not to discuss=20 > implementation details right now, it's premature. >=20 > * Incredibly stupid people can hose SMF too. It is more complex. OTOH=20 > that complexity might scare the uninitiated from attempting something=20 > dumb. Quite frankly, service managers/monitors should manage services in a best ef= fort manner. Unless, there=E2=80=99s danger of something like filesystem cor= ruption occurring, I don=E2=80=99t think that a ton of effort should be put i= nto making complicated cases work. Cheers, -Enji=