From owner-freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 13:07:56 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8330F10A9A30 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 13:07:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd29.google.com (mail-io1-xd29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A27E1958EC for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 13:07:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd29.google.com with SMTP id t7-v6so7787505ioj.13 for ; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 06:07:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=9mIHULBX1kVwtTwodZcHYwSmmtg1NerNJ6YRELoeZbs=; b=mC9mykkocwqgYjG1HmWAop3WNmcXs+XzC52j83sF1JwIlSH/scLbKSFMPD/PsDLCMS FGa3isvhCmfGQHRJKb8QI55hupzsjwifTuPp6irEc+V99xi/pVwohtAV8z0PhwWB3mZ7 xj3KtClKF7uIEpuoMQjm0H+5e281892F0gcuptX2QUMPIJYdkRu4BLfgrgHRTwOZD/WK nNhU7VrMUc0KBY9kWhWSYJBjHE7CmxFHbgX922n2XzBL73DpydwGOLYTP6fNIZFQR0GZ 4glKio1n5lbZZvWNpLn3SlXLHJCt2Z7JIc71JsYxIGA2r7rgv/It6/T0pUvb+8S9bbvO x/qA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9mIHULBX1kVwtTwodZcHYwSmmtg1NerNJ6YRELoeZbs=; b=BWQWLDhNPhI2iXxqeBKuOQHZkB8rZBgIVK55F0VDVaSOMVYsPd1v1cftfhRskXalTv MOxY1GP9i5iJCpzFI0hB58glMmFYOb4XoJeXbwvCRO8kqDV3Uhs2hl0gdRkmWk8yaA+m ujN48k10q+9MEzP0iI8dcBWQTJbFozKOKs4Ny7K/qWXsHcDfXzXJTxgxz1+n/kmtS0GR zgvPfzWQEAvnnQh++dxRDH5upux8ltRGUkPUSZbL4VtYj6Xx2sxVUXub8WwmYnhx05TD d/F+CcxU1RMTTtiQpt3rJ/P4jUGn83AwJ6Q56C6OEiFG2Jn709loFcy+kptzO8bmrudt 8Ydw== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfohqwPBUrOXB7cNgRPBMlM8wRb5oPewkAJ6YLRScnthRHq1VD9E1 DSumH/QkHrS50XPAcVmwQt4cIb0t34th7R33or/dXw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV6248mDexwkUBIAGL9LrKwjM5xJbv162K5jpqnZafffvRm2Mlh1/tMaHrYBQRcyI6tE2SnUGAHv5EFLuRIl71UU= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:e715:: with SMTP id b21-v6mr4537243ioh.37.1538658474822; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 06:07:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <20181004084411.GA50348@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <20181004084411.GA50348@FreeBSD.org> From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 07:07:43 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: Alexey Dokuchaev Cc: Brooks Davis , FreeBSD Net , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 13:07:56 -0000 On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 2:45 AM Alexey Dokuchaev wrote: > Looking at the commits they require near zero maintenance. What exactly > is the burden here? > I believe that characterization is incorrect. There's a burden. And it's death of a thousand cuts. And many of those cuts have been inflicted on brooks@. Most of these drivers have had dozens or hundreds of commits each over the years to keep up with the API changes. This acts as a tax on innovation because it's such a pain in the back side to change all the drivers in the tree. I did a back of the envelope computation that this is on the order of hundreds of hours of time, spread across all the drivers over all the years we've supported them. Some of these drivers are clearly unused, and so that's 100% wasted effort. Most of these drivers are on machines that most likely won't be able to run 13.0 well when it comes out in 2 years due to increased memory demands that it will almost certainly have. The declining use means we anticipate that if we were to maintain them until 13, it would be wasted effort for at least some on the list. That's why that one way to get the driver off the list is to convert to iflib. That greatly reduces the burden by centralizing all the stupid, common things of a driver so that we only have to change one place, not dozens. At the root of this problem is the community's long resistance to having data reported back to the project data about the machines running FreeBSD. Absent any real and significant data, the only way to know if things are unused is to ask. We cannot have the act of merely asking cause people to freak out and hurl expletives all over the place. That's significantly not cool. Warner