From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 20:08:18 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D555CE99DC3 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 20:08:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kmacybsd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-oi0-x22a.google.com (mail-oi0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9673D808D6 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 20:08:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kmacybsd@gmail.com) Received: by mail-oi0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id s9so10334715oie.5 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 12:08:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=Yi6Jqh6SSM4TgicfaHoqXd2oqKDHUfZRxwsKlsZXUco=; b=XfuJXW+TL+P1xyfHnpp83R4I21BBpP0ksRVTJ4TPkDwg/9a6VHdOJbAqcnLHYxqWPR Zxo4R+mOKqGT+Du9aOLi6wO8W1fJXogTLd/C9yLHjTG6ClTw1UIjupEiCrBSicDbbQSQ 1bZai/CtrqlJNWHXTOMl/QSLIfxTZFoEjJIGo6x9LN9MXAM8L9mHgT9zuykhxBbcl0hr Mq1a6drOE45skWr+H7y6uY+71RuId708DAlChtGXJMq/xPpui+13X+3ik/hCNVF+2vW8 Ntei00oJwVpgaXC4+I+ErdFWLZQrLqy8RNbTqcdNUE7xZBl/0mjTUtiNr0G6CXXYD002 IIkQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Yi6Jqh6SSM4TgicfaHoqXd2oqKDHUfZRxwsKlsZXUco=; b=QXHzFpDylibdPnG89N25mqRKwtGxWIslllqURnm4Kqs8ylLGf7HPtPlF2qIMzUuq71 4KMwDcere63DJIvbEiSxgc8oojlkzr7URxJIGwj5oa8lV71ii9WFaOiXsCkSX5QUqKCr 482igW/67JoR6ckdG/KCEgYFiEpYaGLUBwtMTc7/fxVvpeWUNWr62nzqqHAMZ5qOhdrl HpEHyE0MfIRhE8aZsb1NKOoOkrugEvb5G5Yi0YcMaZgIyoDY6X+T+LGY8dYYSUVL7OR9 Kl+w+Z6DJIFSoEDljX18RZKVeINg9V60oGLqbEtsRkMOKf6kpgmn2bZxr6O+twKrf4Tr U1HQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX7Rigk8rJM8emMjbabP44nzahIDqCw/5gnkD8YUop/CpHKDnAI4 LJgWfbl1M/wF/jSp73YdZ+YxKE2LsTWhAaxBK+9liw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMZRCaDMq+ezdLdBS2lxDtySQqGcI/c4otV9uCge2flzUanw1UsCPJevQMT9IlbSJahldFlVv1OB5r0XkcQHJCo= X-Received: by 10.202.245.144 with SMTP id t138mr28053377oih.201.1512936497811; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 12:08:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: kmacybsd@gmail.com Received: by 10.157.66.238 with HTTP; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 12:08:17 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20171206223341.iz3vj4zz2igqczy7@ivaldir.net> <0f11ca9a-c28f-6667-9509-11a1ba05ff98@freebsd.org> <98201b70579455dfa4fa58aebd3181b3@clogic.com.ua> <201712101331.vBADVcxH078614@donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net> From: "K. Macy" Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 12:08:17 -0800 X-Google-Sender-Auth: qInZVjwTnghuo-rSneURLzN7Tmo Message-ID: Subject: Re: RFC: Sendmail deprecation ? To: freebsd.arch@clogic.com.ua Cc: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 20:08:18 -0000 On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 6:27 AM, wrote: > On 2017-12-10 15:31, Jamie Landeg-Jones wrote: >> >> freebsd.arch@clogic.com.ua wrote: >> >>> Most users don't need a sandmail in base. As example, I always disable >>> sendmail and install dma for local use or postfix for mail servers. So I >>> can't understand, why I need do this every time as I install new >>> instance of FreeBSD in 2017? >> >> >> There are many valid arguments for and against removal, but I'm afraid >> that isn't one of them. That's not really the question. The question is "why won't 'pkg install sendmail' work for users that need it?" There are two technical reasons for why a component is in base and two emotional / political. The two technical reasons are: 1) The system won't work without it (e.g. rc files, kill, rm, etc) 2) The component is tightly coupled to the kernel (e.g. bhyve) There are of course plenty of things which fall in to both buckets: libc, ifconfig, etc. The two emotional reasons are: 1) Emotional attachment (e.g. fortune) 2) Inertia (rcs, sendmail, etc) Thanks to bapt and friends pkg "just works" for most people for most cases. In conclusion, further discussion needs to either a) make a compelling case for why either my technical points are insufficient or the emotional drivers are critical; or b) explain why "pkg install sendmail" won't work. Cheers. -M