From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 18:32:13 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55F55106566B for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 18:32:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yanegomi@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ob0-f182.google.com (mail-ob0-f182.google.com [209.85.214.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 117688FC0C for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 18:32:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: by obbun3 with SMTP id un3so11754910obb.13 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:32:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=N/I1PD0IY4dUarbNgcanfSbmaiRDeqiCY0NPBu0aP/8=; b=0PF+X/aQ17FFpoq5D0gxjkwsoNWasMA4xr+TBITAwKZTjU6iX1yyjqvzReAtK232c2 TR4VfOwSp12b70l8J5jFBrWpduKMUY+Xv3x3wQ7TEUavqbjuXupP06dHl4KFdkEf7R/r 4jy+jhEKIA/ZOpfEd5RcydibhLT2Q12Qesi8aPK/p2iN3TIdCtsINoDRCD13xwaQ2N7/ 9Mmawuz6lKnp/8q6ZtFO8Vfwk0kPqd+bCXkapM7DCR9zC7LJIhSrFAlYmoKg6xutv6gK 4rGK69Cym1eXyvOWd+kDaVn3DhvLMGRI0ItgZUjKjVg1ntwdg+Jxl4aCRCX7rq/mVf/i vG9g== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.109.74 with SMTP id hq10mr12505164obb.56.1347906732347; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.76.142.201 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:32:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <63507.1347905101@critter.freebsd.dk> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:32:12 -0700 Message-ID: From: Garrett Cooper To: Zhihao Yuan Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Poul-Henning Kamp , Mike Meyer Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 18:32:13 -0000 On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 11:09 AM, Zhihao Yuan wrote: > On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 1:05 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >> In message >> , Zhihao Yuan writes: >> >>>Well, let's make it more straightforward. I hope people can agree with >>>this: a default, officially supported modern desktop environment is >>>essential to FreeBSD. >> >> No, it is not. >> >> It would certainly be nice to have as an option, but I would hate >> to have to deal with it, when I squeeze FreeBSD into embedded systems >> which have neither graphics outputs nor keyboard or mouse inputs. > > "Default" does not mean you "have to" install it. Default means when > you are looking for a DE, bsdinstall, handbook, official site, all of > them answers "*DE". *gathers breath for really tangential/OT rant* Sounds like we have someone volunteering to write a chapter in the handbook and do some X11 development to make Gnome, KDE, XFCE, LXDE, Fluxbox, [...], or etc work better on FreeBSD! To be succinct: this is not OSX/Windows. True Unix and Unix clones can be decoupled from a desktop environment enough that forcing everyone to have one choice for desktop user experience doesn't make sense, and the fact that there isn't a common GUI development toolkit (GTK, QT, etc) encourages fragmentation of effort further (I think it's called the Bazaar model of development :P). It honestly sounds like what you're looking for is a custom FreeBSD-based distribution (and PCBSD is one of those options) as FreeBSD is a generic project. Even the Linux kernel//GNU/Linux OS doesn't have a single adopted DE as its flagship DE. With all of the choices I listed above (and more), getting everyone to agree on working with one DE is like herding cats, in part because end-users/developers have different requirements, opinions, work styles, etc. It makes more sense to provide hooks into several DEs (like Linux, PCBSD, etc has done) to accomplish various tasks in a GUI-ish manner (setting up networking, wireless, etc) and upstream those changes if and when one has the chance to do so. Finally, one should then become a devoted "testing resource"/"advocate" FreeBSD OS integration in the future if one has interest in continuing to use said DE on FreeBSD. Thanks, -Garrett