From owner-svn-src-all@freebsd.org Sat Dec 28 22:41:57 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: svn-src-all@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE6C81CA865 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 22:41:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-qk1-x731.google.com (mail-qk1-x731.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::731]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47ldwh55pKz3KyG for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 22:41:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-qk1-x731.google.com with SMTP id x1so23940029qkl.12 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 14:41:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=yZhXXl2h6wR985mqZqD7oxevZtLndfrdybx0Ro+zbR0=; b=HPtwsIWlY7Fps5ZEC4IHeSECbYR6GvWGqv3YOOD0SmIYnLn9DwAeUJhwVzaoBU+xZj nDWnpSyjPnO3deoR7YiVxZ3JlqWImUVt0qmDP1iBnvml0engNj7KbHUB97kQQaAkhkaB g3mEoAnkU6M0Nal090p3y0LnLf5QzWYS+ektuk1TXMf6uGs1qvcM0ygs3xEDYWtIbW+9 4a+m6sHE+V9mEYnc7yD6cNa9nKavSH4xTJ68AqahGPLy3i/On/1mN9Fsbc0i+qK4FEND u66TmWwqO3Al1B3CweaeWwFeIhRhcWs95US2+vkavJfVjewVMP1MOtB45M3ArJQap90a swBw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=yZhXXl2h6wR985mqZqD7oxevZtLndfrdybx0Ro+zbR0=; b=KriyiFuqT4AewN8bYVctR62UZQ5PQ6C/uhqeAO21C35y3P/eUAUYlsdFWw2j82qDom tV4thP0dWYXMnz328p/laTvH1j3fxIBhjHpLlayasWpyhb9ZiQ2evDpuQrCgGr2ctiio 2wIMlkntEKP2yYXmmiLw7Q4QD4Pl9bGe0pkO2/rCUpH0Jr7l37CQIF6BsTOTE79lWm5A 17J7rI8HPgABhnbM4R+hKzDJH0tqlMCjqORuk+PBSEreE+NFSMxu3JQcNq7mN5jSsfld ci6l5Nxi/QLDrE+z3B/ecI40oBTOSpYQJYeR+zG/TQ90qelF1GLc4vDUEUGG6P2iSc+d Exxg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWiQ8e3kPMq/eiFi5N4u3RS3ExaMr9DPsv3I5Asqw8PhrxF+azZ FEjWiep7dJQs+w7/lJO9KTqKO7E6KYlzZfACxQE8vA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwqltBIp1Ac0YSU/7evTZOijXt9Cc4DJdICr+NR118wwAobMe7OXTDJw353wp/nl1mkrcFyPQqW66bnOhU9d2k= X-Received: by 2002:a37:52d5:: with SMTP id g204mr50325882qkb.215.1577572914337; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 14:41:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <201912282137.xBSLbpGT044620@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> In-Reply-To: <201912282137.xBSLbpGT044620@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> From: Warner Losh Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 15:41:42 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: svn commit: r356142 - in head/sys: dev/ofw sys To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: Jeff Roberson , Pedro Giffuni , src-committers@freebsd.org, svn-src-all@freebsd.org, svn-src-head@freebsd.org X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47ldwh55pKz3KyG X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=HPtwsIWl; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wlosh@bsdimp.com has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::731) smtp.mailfrom=wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.66 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[svn-src-all@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[bsdimp.com]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[1.3.7.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; IP_SCORE(-2.66)[ip: (-9.23), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-2.15), asn: 15169(-1.88), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: svn-src-all@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "SVN commit messages for the entire src tree \(except for " user" and " projects" \)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 22:41:58 -0000 On Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 3:38 PM Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > > > > On Fri, 27 Dec 2019, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > > > > > [ Charset UTF-8 unsupported, converting... ] > > >> > > >> On 2019-12-27 23:24, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > > >>> [ Charset UTF-8 unsupported, converting... ] > > >>>> On 2019-12-27 22:16, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > > >>>>>> Author: pfg > > >>>>>> Date: Sat Dec 28 02:58:30 2019 > > >>>>>> New Revision: 356142 > > >>>>>> URL: https://svnweb.freebsd.org/changeset/base/356142 > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Log: > > >>>>>> SPDX: update some tags with two licenses. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Modified: > > >>>>>> head/sys/dev/ofw/openfirm.h > > >>>>>> head/sys/sys/sched.h > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Modified: head/sys/dev/ofw/openfirm.h > > >>>>>> > ============================================================================== > > >>>>>> --- head/sys/dev/ofw/openfirm.h Sat Dec 28 02:11:41 2019 > (r356141) > > >>>>>> +++ head/sys/dev/ofw/openfirm.h Sat Dec 28 02:58:30 2019 > (r356142) > > >>>>>> @@ -1,7 +1,7 @@ > > >>>>>> /* $NetBSD: openfirm.h,v 1.1 1998/05/15 10:16:00 tsubai Exp > $ */ > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> /*- > > >>>>>> - * SPDX-License-Identifier: BSD-4-Clause > > >>>>>> + * SPDX-License-Identifier: (BSD-4-Clause AND > BSD-2-Clause-FreeBSD) > > >>>>>> * > > >>>>>> * Copyright (C) 1995, 1996 Wolfgang Solfrank. > > >>>>>> * Copyright (C) 1995, 1996 TooLs GmbH. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Modified: head/sys/sys/sched.h > > >>>>>> > ============================================================================== > > >>>>>> --- head/sys/sys/sched.h Sat Dec 28 02:11:41 2019 > (r356141) > > >>>>>> +++ head/sys/sys/sched.h Sat Dec 28 02:58:30 2019 > (r356142) > > >>>>>> @@ -1,5 +1,5 @@ > > >>>>>> /*- > > >>>>>> - * SPDX-License-Identifier: BSD-4-Clause > > >>>>>> + * SPDX-License-Identifier: (BSD-4-Clause AND > BSD-2-Clause-FreeBSD) > > >>>>>> * > > >>>>>> * Copyright (c) 1996, 1997 > > >>>>>> * HD Associates, Inc. All rights reserved. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> This situation should not of occured, and leads to an ambigous > license state. > > >>>> It actually happens a lot (I mean two or more licenses in the same > > >>>> file): SPDX explicitly uses AND (not OR) for cases like this. > > >>>> > > >>>>> What code is under license 2 clause and what under 4 clause? > > >>>> Anyone redistributing the file has to respect both licenses. If you > are > > >>>> lucky enough to have access to version control you may be able to > > >>>> discern the author and the corresponding license, otherwise you are > > >>>> trapped with both. > > >>> So the 2 clause add is null, so why have it there? > > >> > > >> So that eventually, when the project gets to a point where sufficient > > >> part of the code is rewritten they can opt to change the license to > the > > >> simpler form. There are ways to relicense projects gradually, and its > > >> nothing new, in fact it is very much in the BSD spirit to gradually > > >> replace more restricted UNIX code. > > > > > > The only changing we have done to BSD licenses as in thost cases > > > that the Regents requested/granted the right to change to lesser > > > clauses. Until you get HD & Associtates (in this one case) to > > > grant that right your walking on a grey edge I would rather not > > > walk on. > > > > > > The reference to BSD spirit and replacing more restricted UNIX (tm) > > > code is way off base in this context. This is not an AT & T > > > license we are talking about here. And again you can not just > > > modify the existing 4 clause licensed file by slapping a 2 clause > > > license into it, or the project would of done that everyplace > > > ages ago. > > > > > > What is done here in this file is a mistake, and should be corrected. > > > Can you point me to other files that actually have multiple BSD > > > licenses in them? > > > > It seems to be the prevailing theory that headers are not even > > really copyrightable. This has even been tested in court a few times > > (bsd, java). > > Yes, also true of scripts and Makefiles, which are generally > considered under the recipts concept, yet we still have many > which people are claiming copyright to. > > > > > http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0301.1/0362.html > > > > The original definitions from this file were part of posix.1b and so > it's > > hard to argue they are anything but public. Coincidentally I know Greg > > and I'm sure he would not object to reducing the whole file to a two > > clause license. > > Then lets make life very simple in this one case, and I agree with > your intuition about Greg, shoot an email off to him and ask to > drop his licence to 2 clause. > > > However, I'm not so certain as you are that it is not possible to have > two > > copyrights in the same file so long as they are compatible. In many > cases > > we have multiple authors attributed to an individual file. There are > > cases where software is purposefully licensed under multiple licenses. > > Ok, first off understand that Copyrights and Licenses are 2 very different > things. You can have N Copyrights in a file, having 2 or more licenses > in a file without stating when which applies is frought with legal > nightmares. If you clearly state that you can use EITHER license, > then it is ok, if you state that both licenses apply your in legal > limbo if in anyway the joint set is ambigous or in conflict. > > Copyright != License. > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-licensing > > > > This is not an identical situation but it is a common one. > > Agreed, what is in that is not this situation, though it does > clearly state there that the ONLY the copyright holder(s) can alter > the license. One could argue that adding a second license is infact > altering the license, and hence legally a risky thing to do. > > > I called my > > brother who is an IP lawyer and spoke with him about it today. He > > believes this is sufficiently nuanced that we would need a proper legal > > opinion to determine that. > So he seems to agree to me that this is legally a grey area, > Im happy for that. > > > > > I wrote the original file 17 years ago and placed a two clause copyright > > in it. trhodes combined sys/posix4/sched.h with sys/sched.h 13 years > ago > > in the following commit: > > > https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base/head/sys/sys/sched.h?revision=164185&view=markup > > > > So the original license was in fact two clause. > > That I did not know, thanks for the aditional information. > > > > > If a mistake was made, it was made 13 years ago and it is almost > > guaranteed to be legally harmless. > > It has nothing to do with what Pedro > > committed today. > Agreed, what he did was just correct the SPDX to reflect what is present. > > > I don't trust the armchair lawyering of software > > engineers and so to resolve this we would need to ask the foundation to > > pay their lawyers to pursue it. > > As some software engineer did the commit that lead to this state, > which I do not trust either. It is simply something that I did > not realize existed in the FreeBSD source code. > It was put out for review with a commit stating "silence from -arch > -standards. > > > > > In my opinion, this has already wasted everyone's time with an > irrelevant > > nit-picking argument. > > Legal stance of copyright and licenses should NEVER be considered > nit-picking arguments, they are the fundemantal premise that allow > the project to do what it does and is infact the prima face mission > of the foundation to preserve. > > It saddens me that a core team member would consider such issues > as irrelevant. > > > The onus is not on Pedro to chase this down just so > > he can add SPDX tags. If this is important to you then you are welcome > to > > go sort out the details and then post patches for review. I'm sure > myself > > and greg would be happy to do so. However it seems that this wasn't > even > > worth reading the revision history for you to begin lecturing. > > I pointed it out as an issue, some tried to defend it as not an issue, > I responded to there assertions, call it as you wish. > You did no research before wasting our time. I call that disrespectful and not helpful. Warner > Jeff > > > > > > > >> > > >> It may be a long shot but it has happened on other projects as well: > > >> libdialog (in our tree) was rewritten and relicensed from GPL to LGPL. > > >> > > >> > > >>>>> It looks to me as if this was done by Jeff Robinson as the 2 > clause is > > >>>>> attached to his copyright and we should probably just ask him to > relax > > >>>>> that back to the files existing 4 clause license, and or go after > Greg > > >>>>> Ansley of HD associtates to get them to relax the 4 clause. > > >>>>> > > >>>> No, Jeff (or anyone else, as I said there are many cases in our > tree) is > > >>>> entitled to choose his own license as long as it is compatible with > the > > >>>> pre-existing licensing. > > >>> I was specifically sighting this one file, sys/sys/sched.h. > > >>> > > >>> Actually that might be a grey area, no place does the BSD license > grant > > >>> you rights to modify the terms of the license, and that is in effect > > >>> what adding this second license does. > > >> > > >> No one is modifying the original license: it is there and applies to > the > > >> original code. > > >> > > >> > > >>> You can choose your own license for original work, sure, but > obliterating > > >>> parts of an existing license by applying a second license which is in > > >>> conflict is probably a poor idea. > > >> > > >> > > >> We don't do that at all: pretty clearly there is no conflict between > > >> both licenses as you can comply with both. > > > > > > The only way to comply with both is to comply with the full 4 > > > clause license. Hense the 2 clause is pointless in being there > > > and can never apply until all 4 clause authors agree to change > > > to 2 clause. > > > > > >> Pedro. > > > Rod Grimes > rgrimes@freebsd.org > -- > Rod Grimes > rgrimes@freebsd.org >