Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 20:05:39 +0200 (CEST) From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai <asmodai@wxs.nl> To: "Michael C. Vergallen" <mvergall@double-barrel.be> Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@zippy.cdrom.com>, Sergey <serge69@nym.alias.net>, Robert Withrow <witr@rwwa.com>, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG, jonathan michaels <jon@caamora.com.au> Subject: Re: [Q] How stable is FreeBSD 3.X ? Message-ID: <XFMail.990526200539.asmodai@wxs.nl> In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.04.9905260735390.7115-100000@ws3.double-barrel.be>
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On 26-May-99 Michael C. Vergallen wrote:
> On Wed, 26 May 1999, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote:
>>
>> People saw this thread only from a pure user/developer perspective. Now
>> look at it from a workflow perspective. The mail from Sergey, plus other
>> pr's I see in the gnats database clearly lack all components to make
>> accurate suggestions on the next steps possible, and after more than
>> 10000
>> pr's I can imagine people getting tired of dragging info out of people.
> Yes shure ..but could it just be that the poeple who submit the report
> don't really understand what the developer needs to be able to
> help...sometimes poeple think they are helping by submitting a problem
> report but realy don't quite know complete to make the report in a way
> that makes sense to the developer..
True, those people are out there as well and trust me, they don't get shot
down immediately (just take a look at my first few pr's *blush*)
But I think it has been said/posted/written on a very diverse number of
handbooks/lists/pages/etc that basic information is always the exact error
and noteworthy system configuration (as well as kernel information).
>>
>> It can be as simple as noting the error after certain actions took
>> place.
>> Or as elaborate as booting with -v, crashdumping the OS and gdb'ing it.
> ok shure that is probably enough info for someone who doesn't do anything
> else but develop code..however for most poeple the line above could be
> just like chinese or whatever.
Sorry, but a Unix workstation is not a Windows-95-like playtoy... In
Windows I accept the OS crashing for no apparent reason. With Unix
everything is logical and has a reason. Be it by design or from faulty
hardware. Thus people are required, at least in my (humble) opinion to read
up on what they are doing exactly... Unix was never meant for people
refusing to read docs.
Next thing is that the University of Berkeley is going to be sued by
someone, who got his account shut down due to leaking private IP addresses
to the Internet, who uses a BSD IP stack on some system.
And if my line was like Chinese to someone, then ask on questions what it
meant, or go read the handbook (which was one of the first docs I read
after installing in fact (/usr/share/doc is such a great resource).
>> And it's documented in the docs how to best report problems. And there,
>> once again, we have the problem of not reading the docs...
> Probably right ...and no I don't think it is not the case of not reading
> the docs but comprehending them..some poeple have a limited comprehention
> of the english language ...so that could be it..( exaple if I wrote to
> you in technical french you probably would not be able to comprehend it
> aldo you would be able to read it same thing goes for poeple not
> comprehending english. maybe one should write docs a 10th grade US scholar
> would coprehend...then this would be less accurant.
Well, let's put it the other way, the only submissions I see for changes in
docs or requests for clarity come from our own development team. How's that
for irony?
And btw, as people who bother to read the resources page will undoubtely
found out by now there are two very good resources for documentation
available for quite some time now, namely: www.freebsdzine.org and
www.freebsddiary.com and these were written in a no-nonsense, clear to
understand for all style.
So people still complaining about documentation being sparse they obviously
haven't been spending enough time finding answers.
To put everything together:
The FreeBSD lists provide FAR more feedback than any commercial company
about bugs/problems reported.
For a non-commercial product this is just fantastic.
Thus one cannot DEMAND 24/7 support giving sparse information, this might
work for a Microsoft or a Novell (who gladly account a fair amount of cash
for yer question), but not for FreeBSD.
You want good support? Go look at the freebsdmall.com.
The developers are willing to fix stuff, provided they get enough
information to work with. They are _NOT_ helpdesk employees, so do not
treat them accordingly.
And djeez, do I start to sound like Jordan =P
(at least in length of mails ;)
---
Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl
The FreeBSD Programmer's Documentation Project
Network/Security Specialist <http://home.wxs.nl/~asmodai>;
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