From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Fri Apr 10 20:36:55 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1EAE27885E for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 20:36:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dr.klepp@gmx.at) Received: from vie01a-dmta-at52-1.mx.upcmail.net (vie01a-dmta-at52-1.mx.upcmail.net [62.179.121.142]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48zVDQ69z7z4XCY for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 20:36:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dr.klepp@gmx.at) Received: from [172.31.216.41] (helo=vie01a-pemc-psmtp-at50) by vie01a-dmta-at52.mx.upcmail.net with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jN0JK-0004YN-Sm for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 22:31:34 +0200 Received: from t61.lan ([85.126.97.210]) by vie01a-pemc-psmtp-at50 with SMTP @ mailcloud.upcmail.net id R8Xa2200c4YLlkt0B8XaUB; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 22:31:34 +0200 X-SourceIP: 85.126.97.210 X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=O6RJhF1W c=1 sm=2 tr=0 cx=a_idp_f a=/Ac8Q0O/YFE5LOLfUiYZVw==:117 a=/Ac8Q0O/YFE5LOLfUiYZVw==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=N659UExz7-8A:10 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=hPoJL0YCAAAA:8 a=0X_d-KYpx1y4vMe0VsIA:9 a=pILNOxqGKmIA:10 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 From: "Dr. Nikolaus Klepp" To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ars Technica article on FreeBSD new user experience Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 22:32:59 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.10 References: <9bc85f04-ed38-4d5a-bec3-551079cdcb2b@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: X-KMail-QuotePrefix: > MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <202004102233.00017.dr.klepp@gmx.at> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48zVDQ69z7z4XCY X-Spamd-Bar: +++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=fail (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dr.klepp@gmx.at does not designate 62.179.121.142 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dr.klepp@gmx.at X-Spamd-Result: default: False [7.75 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_SPF_FAIL(1.00)[-all]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmx.at]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[gmx.at]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.95)[0.953,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[1.000,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; FROM_NAME_HAS_TITLE(1.00)[dr]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ipnet: 62.179.0.0/17(1.05), asn: 6830(3.69), country: AT(-0.10)]; FORGED_MUA_KMAIL_MSGID(3.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[142.121.179.62.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmx.at]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6830, ipnet:62.179.0.0/17, country:AT]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 20:36:55 -0000 Anno domini 2020 Fri, 10 Apr 20:23:20 +0000 Rick Macklem scripsit: > Mike Remski wrote: > >On Thursday, April 9, 2020 5:39:45 PM EDT, Rick Macklem wrote: > >> Ed Maste wrote: > >>> Jim Salter has an article in Ars Technica discussing his experience > >>> with FreeBSD 12.1 as a desktop: > >>> https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/04/not-actually-linux-distro-rev= iew-freebsd-12-1-release/ > >>> > >>> There are some points in there that might involve misunderstanding, > >>> but there are also a number of real issues raised about the experienc= e ... > >> Since this is a public mailing list, I'll repost here... > >> > >> One thought here that I'll throw out (I have no idea if others > >> have suggested > >> this before)=85 > >> What about creating a separate release for desktops/laptops that insta= lls > >> X Windows etc from a simple installer "out of the box"? > >> --> To keep it simple, don't try to support all hardware, just > >> stuff that is widely > >> available and already well supported by the drivers in FreeBSD. > >> Obviously amd64 only plus a few widely available display > >> chip sets that work > >> well, etc and so on... > >> > >> If it doesn't support the hardware someone has, then they can go the r= egular > >> release/install route. (It would be nice to maintain an up to > >> date list of what > >> hardware it supports, but it might be easier to just have it > >> start up live CD > >> style and then see if the hardware it needs is there. > >> --> Sorry, can't do this display chipset to that sound chip or... > >> > >> Just an idea, rick > >> ps: I am not volunteering to help do this. I run FreeBSD on laptop/des= ktop > >> systems, but bare bones. No X Windows... > > > >Something like what old PCBSD did? How about FuryBSD as a starting poin= t? > >Joe Maloney is layering either XFCE or KDE (2 different ISO/install medi= a) > >on top of a FreeBSD install, so out of the box, the install gives you > >FreeBSD with either XFCE or KDE. > Yes. I'll admit I didn't know FuryBSD existed until now, but if the web p= age is > accurate, it would be fine. I just tried the XFCE version of it after reading about it here. It's quite= nice :) Nik >=20 > Maybe all that should be done is a reference to it on FreeBSD's web page. > "If you are new to FreeBSD and want a desktop system, you could try..." > FreeNAS should be mentioned as well, for people who want a NAS server, im= ho. >=20 > Although I said a new FreeBSD release, I don't see why it needs to be don= e by > the FreeBSD project itself, just that I didn't realize others were curren= tly doing this. >=20 > Maybe someone should ask the author of this article to try FuryBSD? >=20 > >Disclaimer: I've been using FreeBSD with X as a daily driver for a long > >time and honestly never found it that difficult to set up. Hardest was > >when everything started to need the drm-kmod bits, but once I understood > >what I needed to do, it's not been an issue. > I feel about the same w.r.t. NFS servers. > However, I've known good technical people who just haven't used FreeBSD > who have found FreeNAS worked just fine whereas setting up a server using > a FreeBSD release didn't work for them. >=20 > rick >=20 > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >=20 =2D-=20 Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing w= ith the NSA, CIA ...