From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Feb 9 14:53:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (unknown [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 336D437B69C for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 14:52:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA34985; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 09:59:21 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 09:59:18 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Yong Lim Cc: Rick Hamell , "SILVER, MICHAEL A" , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hello from russia! Message-ID: <20010210095916.F19976@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Yong Lim , Rick Hamell , "SILVER, MICHAEL A" , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Yong Lim on Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 03:28:57PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 03:28:57PM -0500, Yong Lim wrote: > For newbies to subscribe to -questions, it > is very intimating. I tried and after a few days I had to get out. Is freebsd-questions a problem? Then I suggest we deal with it directly. Using -newbies to do what -questions already does, or should do, is sweeping it under the carpet and making it worse. And if you do want some changes to freebsd-questions, once you've broken the ground rules for list charters you have a very wobbly leg to stand on. Would you like some FreeBSD gurus to decide what is wrong with your attitude to freebsd-questions? Or do you think your interests would be better served by discussion amongst newbies only, to outline the problems we have with -questions and try to find some real newbie-oriented solutions? Where do you think we could talk about that stuff, huh? Where? Where would we be allowed to? Where could we discuss newbie to newbie without some heavy pushing their point of view or blaming a newbie for their own distress? Where could we get something off our chest without shoving it in the face of the person whose error might have caused our difficulties? If we don't clutter freebsd-questions with chat, and don't ask or answer support questions here, they'll leave us alone. We have a "gentlemen's agreement" from most of the helpers that they'll keep their noses out of here and let us let off steam without any wrist slaps or non-newbie points of view. It's a deal that this list is based on, and most of the time everyone sticks to it without trouble. But note that freebsd-questions is the one and only central place for support questions and answers, no matter what level you think they are. But it's not working. We also agreed that if it didn't work we'd close freebsd-newbies down. If we do that, then don't ever even THINK of having space to find real solutions to any freebsd-questions issues as they arise without interference from people who think they know more about newbies than a real newbie. The best helpers on -questions openly state that they can't claim to know what newbies feel, and they support the idea of having this list to work it out among peers only. They might read sometimes, but they won't butt in. We always have a couple of people who won't play by the rules, though, at all levels, so watch out. You have a problem with freebsd-questions? Then you'd better bloody well fix it, together, before some misguided hyper-intelligent blinkered fool imposes their own 'fix' on you. Fixing starts with describing and defining the problem, then looking at the causes, options, etc. Only you people can do that, alone, on your own turf, and any hero who tries to help you will only make it worse. You must find a way to make freebsd-questions work for you, because nobody else can speak for you. Your choice. Work it out properly, your way, here, or shut up and wear it. PS I too would support the name change to freebsd-newbies-chat, as I recommended two years ago. At last feedback it didn't match the FreeBSD list naming format, and adjusting to a change would be a big job for very little return judging from the way newbies refuse to read or abide by list charters anyway. By your actions you can prove them wrong. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message