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From: Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2025 14:03:52 -0700
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Subject: Re: git: 7e7f88001d7d - main - pf: use time_t for storing time_t values
To: Kristof Provost <kp@freebsd.org>
Cc: John Baldwin <jhb@freebsd.org>, src-committers <src-committers@freebsd.org>, 
	"<dev-commits-src-all@freebsd.org>" <dev-commits-src-all@freebsd.org>, 
	"<dev-commits-src-main@freebsd.org>" <dev-commits-src-main@freebsd.org>
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On Mon, Feb 17, 2025, 10:08=E2=80=AFAM Kristof Provost <kp@freebsd.org> wro=
te:

> On 17 Feb 2025, at 16:24, John Baldwin wrote:
>
> On 2/14/25 12:50, Kristof Provost wrote:
>
> The branch main has been updated by kp:
>
> URL:
> https://cgit.FreeBSD.org/src/commit/?id=3D7e7f88001d7dfec83cd7568369be6a5=
87d4a51ff
>
> commit 7e7f88001d7dfec83cd7568369be6a587d4a51ff
> Author: Kristof Provost kp@FreeBSD.org
> AuthorDate: 2025-02-07 10:29:26 +0000
> Commit: Kristof Provost kp@FreeBSD.org
> CommitDate: 2025-02-14 17:47:52 +0000
>
>  pf: use time_t for storing time_t values
>      No change to the underlying type, so no ABI change.
>      We define __time_t as uint64_t if __LP64__, otherwise uint32_t,
>  and only define __LP64__ if long is 64 bits.
>  In other words: __time_t =3D=3D long.
>      ok henning@ deraadt@
>      Obtained from:  OpenBSD, guenther <guenther@openbsd.org>, 6c1b69a0ff
>  Sponsored by:   Rubicon Communications, LLC ("Netgate")
>  Differential Revision:  https://reviews.freebsd.org/D48963
>
> This is an ABI change on non-i386 32-bit platforms in FreeBSD since they
> all use a 64-bit type for time_t that is not the same size as long. Not
> sure if the ABI change matters on FreeBSD though?
>
> It wasn=E2=80=99t intended to be an ABI change, hence the commit message.=
 It
> appears that=E2=80=99s only correct for x86 though.
>

Yes. It may have been true in openbsd land, but not FreeBSD.

> So we=E2=80=99re only talking about armv7 and ppc32, if I=E2=80=99m not f=
orgetting
> anything. The former is on the removal list already, and the latter ..
> well, I don=E2=80=99t know how many users there are. Both are likely to b=
e embedded
> platforms where the ABI change is going to be even less relevant (because
> it really only matters if the kernel and userspace are not updated
> together, and these are going to be embedded devices that are far more
> likely to have everything updated simultaneously).
>

Armv7 will be around in 15. Ppc32 is likely going away.

> So I=E2=80=99m unsure about what to do. I can revert this and we can just=
 carry
> this (trivial) diff to OpenBSD forever, or we can ignore the ABI breakage
> given the above. I=E2=80=99m not inclined to do anything more involved th=
ough.
>
> Do you have any thoughts?
>
I think the diffs to OpenBSD are most undesirable of the alternatives.

Major os breakage is fine. Tier2 platforms get a weaker version of
compatibility.

Armv7 is on the cusp of the abi needing to work. Sonce this is a private
abi, and only a few programs are affected and they already need an update
for 15 due to other changes (right?) And since providing backwards
compatible ABI shims looks to be kinda nontrivial, I agree with the others:
document in release notes and don't MFC and we're likrly good.

If it is really important to someone AND everything works except for thos
one detail between 14 and 15, then the project=E2=80=99s custom would be to
integrate that patch, but not require the originator to do it.

Tl;dr: mfc no. Relnotes yes.

Warner

Warner

Best regards,
> Kristof
>

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<div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Feb 17, 2025, 10:08=E2=80=AFAM Kristof Provost=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kp@freebsd.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
>kp@freebsd.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><u><=
/u>




<div><div style=3D"font-family:sans-serif"><div style=3D"white-space:normal=
">
<p dir=3D"auto">On 17 Feb 2025, at 16:24, John Baldwin wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 5px;padding-left:5px;border-left:2px solid =
#136bce;color:#136bce">
<p dir=3D"auto">On 2/14/25 12:50, Kristof Provost wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 5px;padding-left:5px;border-left:2px solid =
#136bce;border-left-color:#4b89cf;color:#4b89cf">
<p dir=3D"auto">The branch main has been updated by kp:</p>
<p dir=3D"auto">URL: <a href=3D"https://cgit.FreeBSD.org/src/commit/?id=3D7=
e7f88001d7dfec83cd7568369be6a587d4a51ff" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://cgit.FreeBSD.org/src/commit/?id=3D7e7f88001d7dfec83cd=
7568369be6a587d4a51ff</a></p>
<p dir=3D"auto">commit 7e7f88001d7dfec83cd7568369be6a587d4a51ff<br>
Author:     Kristof Provost <a href=3D"mailto:kp@FreeBSD.org" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">kp@FreeBSD.org</a><br>
AuthorDate: 2025-02-07 10:29:26 +0000<br>
Commit:     Kristof Provost <a href=3D"mailto:kp@FreeBSD.org" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">kp@FreeBSD.org</a><br>
CommitDate: 2025-02-14 17:47:52 +0000</p>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:15px;margin-right:15px;padding:5px;border:thin so=
lid gray;overflow-x:auto;max-width:90vw;background-color:#e4e4e4"><code sty=
le=3D"padding:0 0.25em;background-color:#e4e4e4"> pf: use time_t for storin=
g time_t values
     No change to the underlying type, so no ABI change.
     We define __time_t as uint64_t if __LP64__, otherwise uint32_t,
 and only define __LP64__ if long is 64 bits.
 In other words: __time_t =3D=3D long.
     ok henning@ deraadt@
     Obtained from:  OpenBSD, guenther &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:guenther@openb=
sd.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">guenther@openbsd.or=
g</a>&gt;, 6c1b69a0ff
 Sponsored by:   Rubicon Communications, LLC (&quot;Netgate&quot;)
 Differential Revision:  <a href=3D"https://reviews.freebsd.org/D48963" rel=
=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://reviews.freebsd.org/D4=
8963</a>
</code></pre>
</blockquote>
<p dir=3D"auto">This is an ABI change on non-i386 32-bit platforms in FreeB=
SD since they<br>
all use a 64-bit type for time_t that is not the same size as long.  Not<br=
>
sure if the ABI change matters on FreeBSD though?</p>
</blockquote>
<p dir=3D"auto">It wasn=E2=80=99t intended to be an ABI change, hence the c=
ommit message. It appears that=E2=80=99s only correct for x86 though.</p></=
div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div d=
ir=3D"auto">Yes. It may have been true in openbsd land, but not FreeBSD.=C2=
=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
left:1ex"><div><div style=3D"font-family:sans-serif"><div style=3D"white-sp=
ace:normal">
<p dir=3D"auto">So we=E2=80=99re only talking about armv7 and ppc32, if I=
=E2=80=99m not forgetting anything. The former is on the removal list alrea=
dy, and the latter .. well, I don=E2=80=99t know how many users there are. =
Both are likely to be embedded platforms where the ABI change is going to b=
e even less relevant (because it really only matters if the kernel and user=
space are not updated together, and these are going to be embedded devices =
that are far more likely to have everything updated simultaneously).</p></d=
iv></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div di=
r=3D"auto">Armv7 will be around in 15. Ppc32 is likely going away.</div><di=
v dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><d=
iv><div style=3D"font-family:sans-serif"><div style=3D"white-space:normal">
<p dir=3D"auto">So I=E2=80=99m unsure about what to do. I can revert this a=
nd we can just carry this (trivial) diff to OpenBSD forever, or we can igno=
re the ABI breakage given the above. I=E2=80=99m not inclined to do anythin=
g more involved though.</p>
<p dir=3D"auto">Do you have any thoughts?</p></div></div></div></blockquote=
></div></div><div dir=3D"auto">I think the diffs to OpenBSD are most undesi=
rable of the alternatives.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"aut=
o">Major os breakage is fine. Tier2 platforms get a weaker version of compa=
tibility.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Armv7 is on th=
e cusp of the abi needing to work. Sonce this is a private abi, and only a =
few programs are affected and they already need an update for 15 due to oth=
er changes (right?) And since providing backwards compatible ABI shims look=
s to be kinda nontrivial, I agree with the others: document in release note=
s and don&#39;t MFC and we&#39;re likrly good.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br><=
/div><div dir=3D"auto">If it is really important to someone AND everything =
works except for thos one detail between 14 and 15, then the project=E2=80=
=99s custom would be to integrate that patch, but not require the originato=
r to do it.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Tl;dr: mfc n=
o. Relnotes yes.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Warner=
=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Warner</div><div =
dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div style=3D"font-family:sans-serif"><div sty=
le=3D"white-space:normal">
<p dir=3D"auto">Best regards,<br>
Kristof</p>

</div>
</div>
</div>


</blockquote></div></div></div>

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