From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 15 14:33:23 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BED016A41F for ; Thu, 15 Dec 2005 14:33:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from drew@mykitchentable.net) Received: from relay04.roc.ny.frontiernet.net (relay04.roc.ny.frontiernet.net [66.133.182.167]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 144B143D7B for ; Thu, 15 Dec 2005 14:33:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from drew@mykitchentable.net) Received: from filter10.roc.ny.frontiernet.net (filter10.roc.ny.frontiernet.net [66.133.183.77]) by relay04.roc.ny.frontiernet.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BA103580BB; Thu, 15 Dec 2005 14:33:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: from relay04.roc.ny.frontiernet.net ([66.133.182.167]) by filter10.roc.ny.frontiernet.net (filter10.roc.ny.frontiernet.net [66.133.183.77]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 24810-06-70; Thu, 15 Dec 2005 14:33:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: from blacklamb.mykitchentable.net (67-137-46-178.dsl2.elk.ca.frontiernet.net [67.137.46.178]) by relay04.roc.ny.frontiernet.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33EB53580A1; Thu, 15 Dec 2005 14:33:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.1.25] (unknown [192.168.1.25]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by blacklamb.mykitchentable.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D8E1153F3B; Thu, 15 Dec 2005 06:33:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <43A17EA3.1010802@mykitchentable.net> Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 06:33:07 -0800 From: Drew Tomlinson User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sasa Stupar References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-2.3.2 (20050629) at filter10.roc.ny.frontiernet.net Cc: danial_thom@yahoo.com, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, Ted Mittelstaedt Subject: Re: Polling For 100 mbps Connections? (Was Re: Freebsd Theme Song) X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 14:33:23 -0000 On 12/15/2005 12:33 AM Sasa Stupar wrote: > > > --On 14. december 2005 20:01 -0800 Ted Mittelstaedt > wrote: > >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Danial Thom [mailto:danial_thom@yahoo.com] >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 11:14 AM >>> To: Ted Mittelstaedt; Drew Tomlinson >>> Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org >>> Subject: RE: Polling For 100 mbps Connections? (Was Re: Freebsd Theme >>> Song) >>> >> >>>> Well, if polling does no good for fxp, due to >>>> the >>>> hardware doing controlled interrupts, then why >>>> does >>>> the fxp driver even let you set it as an >>>> option? >>>> And why have many people who have enabled it on >>>> fxp seen an improvement? >>> >>> >>> They haven't, freebsd accounting doesn't work >>> properly with polling enabled, and "they" don't >>> have the ability to "know" if they are getting >>> better performance, because "they", like you, >>> have no clue what they're doing. How about all >>> the idiots running MP with FreeBSD 4.x, when we >>> know its just a waste of time? "they" all think >>> they're getting worthwhile performance, because >>> "they" are clueless. >>> >> >> I would call them idiots if they are running MP under >> FreeBSD and assuming that they are getting better >> performance without actually testing for it. But >> if they are just running MP because they happen to be >> using an MP server, and they want to see if it will >> work or not, who cares? >> >>> Maybe its tunable because they guy who wrote the >>> driver made it a tunable? duh. I've yet to see >>> one credible, controlled test that shows polling >>> vs properly tuned interrupt-driven. >>> >> >> Hm, OK I believe that. As I recall I asked you earlier to >> post the test setup you used for your own tests >> "proving" that polling is worse, and you haven't >> done so yet. Now you are saying you have never seen >> a credible controlled test that shows polling vs >> interrupt-driven. So I guess either you were blind >> when you ran your own tests, or your own tests >> are not credible, controlled polling vs properly >> tuned interrupt-driven. As I have been saying >> all along. Now your agreeing with me. >> >>> The only advantage of polling is that it will >>> drop packets instead of going into livelock. The >>> disadvantage is that it will drop packets when >>> you have momentary bursts that would harmlessly >>> put the machine into livelock. Thats about it. >>> >> >> Ah, now I think suddenly I see what the chip on your >> shoulder is. You would rather have your router based >> on FreeBSD go into livelock while packets stack up, >> than drop anything. You tested the polling code and found >> that yipes, it drops packets. >> >> What may I ask do you think that a Cisco or other >> router does when you shove 10Mbt of traffic into it's >> Ethernet interface destined for a host behind a T1 that >> is plugged into the other end? (and no, source-quench >> is not the correct answer) >> >> I think the scenario of it being better to momentary go into >> livelock during an overload is only applicable to one scenario, >> where the 2 interfaces in the router are the same capacity. >> As in ethernet-to-ethernet routers. Most certainly not >> Ethernet-to-serial routers, like what most routers are >> that aren't on DSL lines. >> >> If you have a different understanding then please explain. >> >>>> >>>> I've read those datasheets as well and the >>>> thing I >>>> don't understand is that if you are pumping >>>> 100Mbt >>>> into an Etherexpress Pro/100 then if the card >>>> will >>>> not interrupt more than this throttled rate you >>>> keep >>>> talking about, then the card's interrupt >>>> throttling >>>> is going to limit the inbound bandwidth to >>>> below >>>> 100Mbt. >>> >>> >>> Wrong again, Ted. It scares me that you consider >>> yourself knowlegable about this. You can process >>> # interrupts X ring_size packets; not one per >>> interrupt. You're only polling 1000x per second >>> (or whatever you have hz set to), so why do you >>> think that you have to interrupt for every packet >>> to do 100Mb/s? >> >> >> I never said anything about interrupting for every >> packet, did I? Of course not since I know what >> your talking about. However, it is you who are throwing >> around the numbers - or were in your prior post - >> regarding the fxp driver and hardware. Why should >> I have to do the work digging around in the datasheets >> and doing the math? >> >> Since you seem to be wanting to argue this from a >> theory standpoint, then your only option is to do the >> math. Go ahead, look up the datasheet for the 82557. >> I'm sure it's online somewhere, and tell us what it says >> about throttled interrupts, and run your numbers. >> >>> Do you not understand that packet >>> processing is the same whether its done on a >>> clock tick or a hardware interrupt? Do you not >>> understand that a clock tick has more overhead >>> (because of other assigned tasks)? Do you not >>> understand that getting exactly 5000 hardware >>> interrupts is much more efficient than having >>> 5000 clock tick interrupts per second? What part >>> of this don't you understand? >>> >> >> Well, one part I don't understand is why when >> one of those 5000 clock ticks happens and the fxp driver >> finds no packets to take off the card, that it takes >> the same amount of time for the driver to process >> as when the fxp driver finds packets to process. >> At least, that seems to be what your arguing. >> >> As I've stated before once, probably twice, polling >> is obviously less efficient at lower bandwidth. In interrupt >> driven mode, to get 5000 interrupts per second you are most >> likely going to be having a lot of traffic coming in, >> whereas you could get no traffic at all with polling mode >> in 5000 clock ticks. So clearly, the comparison is always >> stacked towards polling being only a competitor at high bandwidth. >> Why you insist on using scenarios as examples that are low >> bandwidth scenarios I cannot understand because nobody >> in this debate so far has claimed that polling is better >> at low bandwidth. >> >> I am as suspicious of testimonials as the next guy and >> it is quite true that so far everyone promoting polling >> in this thread has posted no test suites that are any better >> than yours - you basically are blowing air at each other. >> But there are a lot of others on the Internet that seem to >> think it works great. I gave you some openings to >> discredit them and you haven't taken them. >> >> I myself have never tried polling, so I >> am certainly not going to argue against a logical, reasoned >> explanation of why it's no good at high bandwidth. So >> far, however, you have not posted anything like this. And >> I am still waiting for the test suites you have used for >> your claim that the networking in 5.4 and later is worse, >> and I don't see why you want to diverge into this side issue >> on polling when the real issue is the alleged worse networking >> in the newer FreeBSD versions. >> >> Ted > > > Hmmm, here is test with iperf what I have done with and without polling: > ************** > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Client connecting to 192.168.1.200, TCP port 5001 > TCP window size: 8.00 KByte (default) > ------------------------------------------------------------ > [1816] local 192.168.10.249 port 1088 connected with 192.168.1.200 > port 5001 > [ ID] Interval Transfer Bandwidth > [1816] 0.0-10.0 sec 108 MBytes 90.1 Mbits/sec > > This is when I use Device polling option on m0n0. > > If I disable this option then my transfer is worse: > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Client connecting to 192.168.1.200, TCP port 5001 > TCP window size: 8.00 KByte (default) > ------------------------------------------------------------ > [1816] local 192.168.10.249 port 1086 connected with 192.168.1.200 > port 5001 > [ ID] Interval Transfer Bandwidth > [1816] 0.0-10.0 sec 69.7 MBytes 58.4 Mbits/sec > *************** > > BTW: my router is m0n0wall (FBSD 4.11). > Thanks for your post. Can you please tell me what network card and driver your machine uses? Thanks, Drew -- Visit The Alchemist's Warehouse Magic Tricks, DVDs, Videos, Books, & More! http://www.alchemistswarehouse.com