From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 25 18:45:21 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BED9C1065673 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2010 18:45:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gurpreet007@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qy0-f175.google.com (mail-qy0-f175.google.com [209.85.216.175]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83FEB8FC15 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2010 18:45:21 +0000 (UTC) Received: by qyk31 with SMTP id 31so1731132qyk.13 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2010 11:45:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=sPFi+737b/vkbfTrGA/Exa4ycsiS/fMny13mgzaOnzM=; b=BgqSPQtKQI2oNN0+xss6D2zQEy3Yc9ejB9CLVSSYvMPC7W8156815Fwo3GE+L0l4lk hu72gUtax9vNLDK5P7pEhWJDt41SvK+GSc4ltFTmx8PfvivLMJRZ5T0FZa7v1ZPzM2JW G0GyOoin0wVGAJ6hXJLAnVozxlKGtfXjnCfLg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=ssgUMCf+UfEYytIQXAas1EQrPmSwqYToFigM7FgugNG/m3uFy1YozH6tWels7mwnAK w2sYB+Y8PA5ZNoYGX5jHXHkfYkQy4fdIzlLEP77YRr7a+lJ3Jav8Umg/XYBX1423jkVJ fMkSIrJ1+NxsVpzjVuk1YrdUjPEnsWwMD24t4= Received: by 10.224.2.147 with SMTP id 19mr5032153qaj.60.1280082003204; Sun, 25 Jul 2010 11:20:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.142.8 with HTTP; Sun, 25 Jul 2010 11:19:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20100725172538.GA85893@guilt.hydra> References: <8279E0B1-B1ED-49AF-BB8F-15CEA104821A@gull.us> <20100725172538.GA85893@guilt.hydra> From: me Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 23:49:43 +0530 Message-ID: To: FreeBSD Questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: Re: BSD logo X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 18:45:21 -0000 ...and thus the Godwin's law holds! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 10:55 PM, Chad Perrin wrote: > On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 11:54:37AM -0400, Alejandro Imass wrote: > > > > Suppose for a moment that BSD would have forked to FBSD first in the > > East, say by a group of Indian Buddhist computer science students, and > > their choice of logo was a funny cartoon of a smiling Buddha holding a > > Swastika above it's head. The intention here would matter little to > > the common Jew, as he would probably feel immediately uncomfortable > > regardless if he knew what the Buddha was, or that the Swastika is a > > sacred Buddhist symbol. He would just see a semi-naked fat Nazi. Even > > if he knew all these things it would still make him somewhat > > uncomfortable of using this great technology. > > Here's the thing . . . > > The "jesus fish" (or "holy mackerel" or "Ichthys" or whatever you want to > call it) has no variance of meaning across cultures, when it contains the > Greek letters =C9=D7=C8=D5=D3 -- because it really only exists within one= extended > cultural family. Its meaning is clear. I'm not aware of any other > meaning for the mere intersecting-arcs fish symbol itself, without the > Greek letters, either -- but I wouldn't necessarily jump to any > conclusions about it without trying to look it up and, failing that, > asking about it (with clear reference to the fact that I tried and failed > to look up any meanings aside from the obvious). > > Meanwhile, swastikas have many meanings, in many cultures. They have > different meanings from the Nazi usage in parts of Asia, North America, > and even in Germany itself. The Nazis got it *somewhere* you know; they > didn't invent it. Context matters. > > I'd think a devout Christian would have much more reason to complain > about a Flying Spaghetti Monster (whose only purpose is to mock mystical > belief systems) than a Daemon, and that an Orthodox Jew would have much > more reason to complain about SS lightning bolts than a non-diagonal > swastika held aloft by a smiling Buddha. Considering we now have the > Internet at our disposal, I'm not terribly inclined to give a lot of > leeway to people who ask for symbols like a Buddhist swastika to be > changed without having gone to the minimal trouble to look it up on > Wikipedia. > > In truth, even the Hakenkreuz (the swastika variant the Nazis use) is not > strictly negative in meaning; it was a Germanic folk symbol before it was > misappropriated by the Nazis, and it has not *lost* that previous meaning > just because it has gained strong negative associations to those who do > not know its full history. Place it in a white circle on a red field, > though, and as far as I'm concerned you have every right to be disturbed > to see it associated with something you might otherwise like -- because > that is quite clearly a Nazi-specific context. The same goes for the > Nazi Party's parteiadler, depicting a stylized eagle atop a wreathed > hakenkreuz. > > > > > > Again, my intention to butt in here was just to point out that many > > times we find things hilarious, a simple analogy can help us better > > understand that it may very serious to others, such is life though, > > and the 'others' should also make an effort to understand us. Sadly, > > our judgements almost always get in the way of seeing beyond each > > other's myopic viewpoint. > > The fact that someone misunderstands something that can be double-checked > with trivial effort (far less effort than complaining on this mailing > list), and uses that misunderstanding to justify complaints and trying to > convince someone to change a mascot with years of history, seems in no > way justified to me. For me, the key difference is not anyone's biases, > per se -- it's willful ignorance, which I am never inclined to justify or > excuse, in principle. > > > > > > Back to the issue at hand (and actually on-topic), I personally don't > > like the circle with cones and don't think that FBSD should move away > > from the little red Devil or Daemon or whatever you wanna call it > > (does he have a name?). In _my_ judgment, for example, the circle with > > cones looks like some sort of sexual fetish, but then again we're all > > free to interpret it as we like, and who am I, as a relative newcomer > > to FBSD to form an opinion anyway :) > > The mascot's name is Beastie (roughly homonymous with BSD). Of course, > Beastie is *not* actually a FreeBSD symbol, per se: he's a BSD Unix > symbol in general. The first sentence of the Wikipedia page for "Beastie > (Mascot)" says "The BSD daemon, nicknamed Beastie, is the generic mascot > of BSD operating systems."[1] The sex toy logo doesn't do anything for > me, but it is at least a FreeBSD-specific symbol, and I guess I'm willing > to suffer the indignity of having a kind of dumb, largely meaningless > symbol, if it means FreeBSD actually gets a symbol at all. > > My biggest complaint with the sex toy symbol is that it doesn't lend > itself easily to simplification a logo really should. Basically, if it > isn't easily well-represented in a 16px monochrome presentation, it > should be rethought, in my opinion. It has been made official, though, > and I'm not sure the problems I've identified are sufficient to overturn > the apple cart at this point. I'll live with it. > > --- > > [1]: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Beastie_(mascot) > > -- > Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] > --=20 Life is not fair. Get used to it. .... Be nice to nerds. Chances are you'll end up working for one.