From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 22 17:48:34 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5214D16A4CE for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 17:48:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pimout4-ext.prodigy.net (pimout4-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.63.98]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A99A743D1D for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 17:48:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from duo@digitalarcadia.net) Received: from digitalarcadia.net (adsl-68-251-139-244.dsl.covlil.ameritech.net [68.251.139.244]) j2MHmJ5K149560; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 12:48:28 -0500 Received: by digitalarcadia.net (Postfix, from userid 501) id 0CFC31A190D; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:54:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by digitalarcadia.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2E871A1908; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:54:19 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:54:19 -0600 (CST) From: Duo X-X-Sender: duo@valkyrie.local To: Bart Silverstrim In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <423E116D.50805@usmstudent.com> <423EEE60.2050205@dial.pipex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 17:48:34 -0000 On Tue, 22 Mar 2005, Bart Silverstrim wrote: >>> ... you simply refuse to believe the possibility that something could >>> have been wrong but NT didn't *TELL* you about it, and then want to >>> launch into an attack on the OS in a list where people are running >>> FreeBSD quite happily on a wide range of hardware. >> >> If no data corruption occurred, there was nothing wrong. If NT doesn't >> have to tell me about it, neither does FreeBSD. > > That's an interesting philosophy. I already posted about Linux messaging > that the controller was in need of constant resets. The drive was *FAILING*. > NT didn't say anything. If you like sticking your head in a hole then go > ahead and comment out the code that give the error and all will be well. > Most UNIX people like having diagnostic errors in the logs to troubleshoot > things. And, herein lies the main and core behavioral issue at play: He is upset, because he is used to a system, which is more apt to fail "open", than fail "closed". And, this POV, is sadly all too common in the FUD Farms that grow windows zealots. Unfortunately, this behavior is also close minded, and very prone to unprofessional behavior. The mere fact that NT is failing "open", if it were me, would be reason enough to question the hardware. I would trust the BSD team, more than Microsoft, on this, because, Microsoft has a *fact verifyable* history of allowing things, both though ignorance, and by design, to fail "open" rather than closed. Their goal is to maximize the number of people paying them money. To make things "easy". And, in doing so, sometimes forget that "easy" does not equate with "right" or "correct". The open source people are more concerned with quality. *ESPECIALLY* in the area of kernel and driver level code. You dont just wake up one day and decide to write device drivers for an open source project. You have to be a special kind of nutcase, a special kind of crazy. =) But, in the end, the mere fact that NT, and indeed, I have seen similar behavior in Server 2003 and XP. Any system that fails "open" is far more suspect to me, than one that fails closed. > *sigh* they were offering assistance in the form of "when I had a similar > problem, I tried X, and it worked...try X." You tell them they're idiots. > Now, I can't imagine WHY people would get a bad impression of you. This is a > free list for trying to help people. Precisely. He has champaign tastes, and beer money. But, nonetheless, people are *still* trying to help him. I too, am a sucker for strays. =) >>> Something just intuitively tells me that at this point you're more >>> concerned with pissing people off to make a point. >> >> No, although I do get tired of talking to people who sound like they're >> still in grade school. I'm accustomed to working with professionals, >> and professionals address the problem, they don't shoot the messenger. > > Really? I'd didn't get that impression after a few ad hominem attacks on > people in the list. His "professional" status, to me, is tantamount to a high school boy bragging about sex. And, you know what they say about that: The ones who talk about it the most, get it the least. All in all, Bart, I have to say, every time I think he might be starting to "get the picture", he reverts, and says something that makes me just *boggle*. I have no problem with intelligent debate. I just dont care for condecending attitudes. My main point in this message is to simply point out, that, this is a point of view argument. Of almost religious proportions. But, sad to say, Anthony has it wrong. The religion here is not Windows vs. FreeBSD. It is not Open Source, vs. Proprietary. The religious argument going on is: who is to be trusted, a system that fails "open"? And indeed, while failing open, neglects to tell you something that could turn out to be critical? Or a system that fails "closed"? My experience, my training, and my cluepon of the day tells me to distrust a system that fails open. I wish alot more people understood this concept. =) -- Duo Although the Buddhists will tell you that desire is the root of suffering, my personal experience leads me to point the finger at system administration. --Philip Greenspun