From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jul 23 16:10:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA22984 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:10:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.bendnet.com (mail.bendnet.com [199.2.205.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA22966 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:10:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from samantha@thatonegirl.com) Received: from davenport (samantha@b190.bendnet.com [206.163.37.200]) by mail.bendnet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA24844; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:14:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from samantha@thatonegirl.com) Message-ID: <001601bdb68f$083f8100$c825a3ce@davenport.bendnet.com> From: "Samantha Stack" To: "David Marsh" , Subject: Re: FreeBSD Newbies FAK Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:10:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.1 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi :) Just wanted to say I think the EFnet channel #freebsd is a lot of help and also a lot of fun :) Sam -----Original Message----- From: David Marsh To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Date: Thursday, July 23, 1998 4:09 PM Subject: RE: FreeBSD Newbies FAK > >On 18-Jul-98 Sue Blake wrote: >> >> FreeBSD-Newbies is a discussion forum for newbies. We cover any of >> the activities of newbies that are not already dealt with elsewhere. >> Examples include helping each other to learn more on our own, finding >> and using resources, problem solving techniques, how to seek help >> elsewhere, how to use mailing lists and which lists to use, general >> chat, making mistakes, boasting, sharing ideas, stories, moral > >I'm fairly new to this list [1] (and not /quite/ so new to FreeBSD, >although still a newbie 'administrator'), and I'm still not exactly >sure what it's for. > >[1] In fact, I didn't know it existed until the other day, as it's not >mentioned in the 2.2.5-era local webdocs that I installed on the CD I >borrowed from a friend, perhaps an example of the 'change' in newbyness: >old-skool newbies were probably learning how to administrate a >permanently connected academic or research box, new-skool newbies are, >I suspect, more likely to be getting going at home, and with most of >the world unable to afford to dialup and slurp the latest sources, we >might not always have the latest and greatest versions (or docs). > > > >It seems to me a little as if people can ask anything here, as long as >they don't ask a `question'..? ;-) > >> (but not technical) support, and taking an active part in the FreeBSD >> community. We take our problems and support questions to >> freebsd-questions, > >I'm not sure why the decision has been made to direct *all* questions >to FreeBSD-questions. There is an obvious difference between the level >of questioning there which ranges from "Hey, how can I install this >FreeBSD thing under WhineDOS 95" (which I reckon, probably should go >here, for the questioner to be informed that 1: it's an OS in itself, >and 2: yes, there's this great big website you can look at..), to >'newbie-ish' things like "How *do* I install xx? How do I set up yy..?" >to questions from more seasoned users such as "How do I do this really >spiffy multilink ppp thing?" or "How do I do this other very technical >sounding thing that David Marsh hasn't even heard of yet..?" > >This list seems fairly quiet, almost empty compared to -questions, so >I'm simply wondering why the 'simpler' questions couldn't be dealt >with here, on -newbies, which would hopefully allow the real experts on >-questions to get on with more important topics, than having to recite >FAQ references over again.. :-( > > >> One of the things we do together is learn more effective ways to >> find help when we need it. Here are some suggestions: > >This sounds like a good idea, but a little hard to quite get to grips >with.. > >Does this mean that questions along the lines of: > > >Where is there a good tutorial on the more arcane features of 'vi' >(and one that's more readable and has more examples than `man vi')? > >or > >Does anybody know where I can get StarOffice documentation? >www.stardivision.com doesn't seem to have any. > >.would be acceptable topics for discussion here? > >[Incidentally, these are both real queries of mine ;-)] > > > >> You don't have to actually join freebsd-questions before asking a >> question there. Replies to your question will normally be sent to > >Is this following example of 'meta-questioning' acceptable here? > >FreeBSD-questions is a very busy list, and so far, I'm duly subscribed >to it, but it is very timeconsuming to wade through. From my previous >internet experience, I know that it's generally considered rude to fire >questions at a list you don't subscribe to. > >So I'm wondering if -questions really is different in this case? >Do people not mind emailing answers directly to NON-subscribing >questioners? On most other lists that would be considered rude. > >(It would make things a little easier for me not to have to read/junk >every topic on the -questions list, but there's the old chestnut that >the question might just have been answered previously. >(How many times was "Hey? I get this lib.des.blah error in 2.2.6..?" >asked recently.. :-( )) > > > >And, to continue, the wise ones duly respond to such questions as >the above with "Check the website" or "Check the mailing list archive".. >Now, as you point out elsewhere, a large number of newbies (myself >included) access the internet intermittently over non-fixed dialup >links, usually paying for the holidays of telco executives quite >handsomely in the process.. >[Note for USAns: that means we have to pay for the phone calls ;-(] > >While taking a brief check of the website for news or errata is >probably OK, doing an online search of mail-archves soon mounts up the >phone bill, which, IMO, means it would be better for people to be >subscribed to a list and following the threads. > >Which comes back to my point that with -questions being very very busy, >and -newbies being very very quiet, I'd just like to politely suggest >that maybe we should be able to ask at least some of the more >'low level' questions here? > >But please let me know if this has been gone over before or if I'm >treading on somebody's toes.. > > >> If you know what documentation you need but can't locate it, send a >> brief query to FreeBSD-questions. If you don't know what you need, >> always have trouble finding it, or can't make any sense of it when >> you do, ask some patient newbies to steer you in the right >> direction. > >oops, I guess this maybe answers my questions above.. > >But I don't understand why "Where can I find documentation that I can >read so that I can use xxxx?" should be a -questions question, although >the more blunt "How do I use xxxx?" obviously would be..? > >Isn't part of the newbie experience all about "Help! There's these big >horrible man pages: they don't make sense" or worse "Help! There >*isn't* a man page for this program" or "I've really really tried to >read the whole 300K man page, and it still doesn't make sense"? > >I would have thought that the usually fairly simple answers to these >questions could be dealt with on -newbies. After all, the questions are >about how to make sense of existing documentation or finding other >sources, not committing the sin of asking the direct "How do I *do* >this?" > > >>Other resources >> >> A resource list is available at http://www.freebsd.org/newbies.html >> to help new and inexperienced FreeBSD users to find relevant >> information > >Oh, that's news to me, too. It looks like the website has maybe >undergone quite a few changes since 2.2.5. Now, if only I could find >out how to get webcopy to work so that I could download new sections >and read them offline... > >If a lot of these developments (the newbies page and the newbies list >itself) are only just starting to get off the ground, maybe it will >take some time for this information to filter around so that the really >clueless newbies (the "How much space on my C: drive will FreeBSD >take?" ones) might start looking here for advice in the first place..? > > >> quickly. It includes books, on line documents and tutorials, and >>links >> to web pages that other newbies have found useful for learning. If >>you >> have a suggestion for good material to be included, please write to >> freebsd-newbies and tell us about it. > >Right, this sounds good, but it really is the first I've heard of it. > > >> One thing we're going to see a fair bit is people posting >>questions, >> believing they're doing the right thing by posting here as newbies, >> not realising how it works. If someone answers those questions the > >I think that having a single monolithic -questions group isn't the best >way to deal with things, as it becomes too much for people to keep up >with, not least the long-term answerers themselves, I'm sure. > >I'll maybe bring this up on -questions if people feel it has merit, but >wouldn't it possibly be a good idea to split questions into (say) >q-internet, q-apps, q-config, q-install, q-web, q-programming, etc, with >each group focussing on a specific area of FreeBSD usage..? This would >make it easier for users and experts to only keep track of lists that >they're interested in specifically. > > >> So all questions, requests for help, etc still go to >>freebsd-questions >> as usual. Ours is more of a discussion group, a place where newbies > >There doesn't seem to be much discussion going on, unfortunately. > >I do feel that the current list charter is slightly too restrictive, >and also a bit abstract and vague such that it probably dissuades >people from posting as it's not really clear what can be discussed here. > > >What does anybody else think, and does anybody have any answers to any >of my meta-questions (at least those that are deemed within the remit >of the list ;-)? > > >Dave. > > >--- >David Marsh,drmarsh@bigfoot.comPLEX | http://squelch.home.ml.org/ | >Glasgow/Glaschu, Scotland. *If urgent, phone: +44 141 400-0577*| >> CYCLEWAY: cycle activism GB/IE: http://squelch.home.ml.org/cycleway/ < >> includes bikes on public transport, & cycle organisation directories < > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message