From owner-svn-src-head@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 13 18:40:44 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: svn-src-head@hub.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A379D393; Sat, 13 Jun 2015 18:40:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marcel@xcllnt.net) Received: from mail.xcllnt.net (mail.xcllnt.net [50.0.150.214]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6FB49684; Sat, 13 Jun 2015 18:40:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marcel@xcllnt.net) Received: from [10.65.208.216] ([137.122.64.59]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.xcllnt.net (8.14.9/8.14.9) with ESMTP id t5DIeYf6097659 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 13 Jun 2015 11:40:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcel@xcllnt.net) Subject: Re: svn commit: r284198 - head/bin/ls Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2098\)) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_232E492D-1735-4CD6-BD11-521E20E6382F"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 2.5b6 From: Marcel Moolenaar In-Reply-To: <557C661F.8080104@freebsd.org> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2015 14:40:29 -0400 Cc: David Chisnall , Ian Lepore , Steve Kargl , Alexander Kabaev , Marcel Moolenaar , src-committers@freebsd.org, svn-src-all@freebsd.org, svn-src-head@freebsd.org Message-Id: <860017ED-D754-450C-865D-2D81A30C2212@xcllnt.net> References: <201506100127.t5A1RdX6051959@svn.freebsd.org> <20150612204309.11dd3391@kan> <20150613024916.GA98218@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> <1434208622.1415.57.camel@freebsd.org> <557C661F.8080104@freebsd.org> To: Julian Elischer X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2098) X-BeenThere: svn-src-head@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: SVN commit messages for the src tree for head/-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2015 18:40:44 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_232E492D-1735-4CD6-BD11-521E20E6382F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Jun 13, 2015, at 1:19 PM, Julian Elischer = wrote: >=20 > On 6/13/15 11:38 PM, David Chisnall wrote: >> On 13 Jun 2015, at 11:17, Ian Lepore wrote: >>> If you would have told me a year ago that you had a simple scheme = that >>> could make 30 years of experience maintaining code for unix-like = systems >>> completely worthless I would have been skeptical, but it seems we're >>> well on our way. >> There is a lot of heckling and unhelpful hyperbole in this thread. = Reading the xo_emit format strings takes a little bit of getting used = to, but the same is true of printf - it=E2=80=99s just that we=E2=80=99re = already used to printf. The structured parts (xo_open_container, = xo_close_container and friends) are clear and descriptive. The changes = are fairly invasive, but the benefits are also very large for anyone who = is wanting to automate administration of FreeBSD systems. >>=20 >> If you have suggestions for how the libxo APIs could be improved, = then please let us know - Phil is very reception to suggestions but = objections along the lines of =E2=80=98it=E2=80=99s not what I=E2=80=99m = used to and changes sometimes break things so we should never have = changes=E2=80=99 are not helpful. >>=20 >> David >>=20 > I made a suggestion for an alternate path in the previous thread. >=20 > = https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2015-March/054855.html= >=20 > but I have a job and kids so I can't object if I'm not listened to.. > (no time to actually follow my own advice and produce working code.) Not wanting to change all programs and instead write grammars for all programs seems like a worse solution. The scope is the same (same number of programs), but since the grammars and programs are two distinct entities, it=E2=80=99s actually fairly hard to make sure both = are changed at the same time when so needed. It=E2=80=99s also not at all a given that screen scrubbing is always easy enough to do that it isn=E2=80=99t causing some sort of problems in specific situations. If one wants to output JSON, XML and HTML you find that screen scrubbing doesn=E2=80=99t even give you all the information you need. = It=E2=80=99s very natural to come to the conclusion that it=E2=80=99s easier to get = the data from the source and skip the entire non-lossless translation phase. -- Marcel Moolenaar marcel@xcllnt.net --Apple-Mail=_232E492D-1735-4CD6-BD11-521E20E6382F Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJVfHkdAAoJEIda8t8f0tjjhA4QAKZEczGxM2qewibBzMOGmQaU IuNQIMz7hUXhsoJ0AQ+Zw07Ad/Vg9EsbX+pYVqUPJrFIfDqEv2hC/u3qXEkm5QK5 wbN294IBaM31GZZfxXYhN1Ibh2TtUqHbRu0ODexupx6rdD1gEk8qQ8Vf/dhCWwHA yWauNBpxjoMl/1phgPPztfCjPNFqns9ZeQW0yZDXBHYRGQj1Dr7N5bUctiEAmb1a 3NOi/EV4gEkfXAw9tIBUu2IdZrhWKqwOib16fSrPE+qd+f8n5VzpoIr763EWLFkN RSakmjmWvHJQrdTKI5qOOiG1Eov8TQjgoS0fiq1ttbJcN08OZFCtDn4BItEwmKAk fKd72XJMmal4NqSH7kA2LzWYXjHqESJpwtO3l/nQheyPiGBCve32nkouZ+jF7Hg0 CHqL3w9VcrTt15w6vY/wyIurlQM1OOgJhrc6Y3pJgqt0Vbh8h4qsCQMN3rY9UDzD tae2Rc0GXaTE5ZmZvYPdzOPUSZQwE5TijiqRNB2GqyZz6jfW+0IHckapkiZbhjcZ v1r15xc2hLGsrhgUxbIqgVt/zwseJIdk/yyLMQsG9Ij2Xa4Pey8YjH0wpo2x2rmL KVulBcCG03jW8oZOWb0Lq1wRko4+v8WkUR9rp8lgxavLxJTRnzY7cr3oAAS51t21 milhmFvXUYq+VprVZwnY =+X5U -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_232E492D-1735-4CD6-BD11-521E20E6382F--