From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 19 1:41:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6060937B403 for ; Tue, 19 Jun 2001 01:41:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f5J8eol67819; Tue, 19 Jun 2001 01:40:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "David Johnson" , "Giorgos Keramidas" Cc: Subject: RE: Microsoft and FreeBSD, as reported in the Wall Street Journal Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 01:40:48 -0700 Message-ID: <003601c0f89b$8a362f00$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <3B2E7DB7.C0BF8429@acuson.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of David Johnson >Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 3:16 PM >To: Giorgos Keramidas >Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: Microsoft and FreeBSD, as reported in the Wall Street >Journal > > >Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > >> The fact that he *does* begin his article speaking about Open Source >> in general though, is important. No, he does not explicitly mention >> BSD. Nowhere in his article, the word BSD can be found. However, >> bashing Open Source in general (even if after a while, it turns out to >> a GPL bashing contest), does harm to all Open Source projects, in my >> humble opinion. > >This is very important to note, and I'm glad you made the effort to >clarify it. Microsoft is using smoke-and-mirrors and classic FUD to >discredit all of open source, including the BSD license and all software >under it. They took a part of open source and labelled it as the whole. >The public won't know the difference, but Microsoft sure did. > But, many in the GPL community have already tried taking GPL and labelling it as the Whole Open Source so Microsoft isn't doing anything that hasn't already been attempted by some people in GPL. Anyway, Crag doesen't start out bashing Open Source. (the speech is here: http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/craig/05-03sharedsource.asp read it for yourself) What he starts out doing is bashing business models that give away their intellectual property for free. In case you missed it, the FreeBSD Project is not a business model. Even Red Hat is not really a business model that does this - because they don't create Linux they just repackage it. In fact the businesses that really match this description are all the failed dot-coms. Craig even says this! Anyway, the entire first part of Craig's speech is basically a lead in to rah-rahing the Microsoft.NET strategy, (whatever that is supposed to be) It's the same old bullcrap of how everyone's going to make a million dollars from taking their businesses onto the Internet, and by the way there's this neat Microsoft software you just need to have to do it. Oh, and yes you probably read about all the failed dot coms that already tried this and it didn't work, but guess what we have this new an improved idea that you should actually charge people on the Internet for your products instead of givig them away. Whoop-de-do, there's not anything here that a C-average business student couldn't have told you. In short, if you set out to create a commercial entity that is supposed to create products to make a profit, then you should charge real money to the customers of those products. Then, his speech moves into a bunch of rah-rahing the Microsoft Shared Source. Nothing new here, he just restates the program that they have already been doing for some time through the universities. So, basically what we have here is his not only does his speech start out but but a significant portion of it is a bunch of "rah, rah, buy Microsoft" There's no Open Source bashing there. The reason for it being this way, of course is that the first part is for the general populace because most people today are so God-damned lazy that they won't even read entirely through a 3000 word speech posted on the Internet, and in the audience of people that were listening to the speech most of them have fallen asleep by now. It's not until you get deep in the speech that the Open Source bashing starts up. But, there is only a SINGLE _general_ bash at Open Source, which is that it might create a lot of unhealthy forking. This is, of course, rediculous because that hasn't happened, and furthermore if you want to talk about forking, just look at all the different versions of Windows out there now that developers need to keep track of when they develop. Right after the fork bash, though, is when Microsoft starts bashing the GPL. And, far from what you say about taking part of open source and labelling it the whole, Craig takes pains to separate GPL and Open Source with phrases like: "..open source software based on the GPL.." Then, he moves on to this surprising statement: "..Finally, the fact that we believe strongly in the value of IP protection doesn’t mean that we discount the importance of contributing to and supporting the public domain of knowledge as well. We believe that interaction between the public domain and the IP-based sector needs to be based on mutual responsibility and respect..." Now, I'm sorry but the BSD license _is_ the "public domain of knowledge", despite what columnists and pundits say. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.. remember that! There's no operational difference between what people MEAN when they talk about "Public Domain" and what the BSD license says. Craig even says this much when he then goes on to say: "..There is an important and longstanding tradition for the public domain of knowledge, or "intellectual commons." .." Note that he isn't using the legal terminology of the capitalized "Public Domain" he is talking about "the public domain of knowledge" Craig is speaking to the people that use the term Public Domain to mean not only the BSD license but the X license as well as their own made-up licenses that are basically copies of the BSD one. >I'm already seeing rumblings of Microsoft's next attack, which will >utilize a divide-and-conquer strategy. Pit the various OSS advocates >against each other. This is very easy to imagine. Have Microsoft come >out with a clarification of their OSS stance, praising the BSD license >while at the same time condeming the GPL. If you think the rift is bad >now, wait until Bill Gates publicly chooses sides. > Consider this: in a fight between Linux/GPL and Microsoft, who would benefit more by the BSD people siding with the GPL people against Microsoft? Would it be BSD, or would it be...GPL? And, do you honestly think that Microsoft cares one way or another what side that BSD chooses to support? How would splitting off us from GPL help Microsoft? I know it's humbling but we just don't represnt that big a chunk of the market compared to Linux. Expending effort splitting us off won't gain them the same advantage that spending that effort directly fighting the GPL would. In short, it is clear that the GPL is what's under attack here. It's also fairly clear that Microsoft has taken some pains to do the dance between condemming the GPL and congradulating BSD - while they don't come right out and say "BSD" in Craig's speech, it's very clear that this is what they mean if you read between the lines. All the Wall Street article does is confirm this. What is less clear is how will siding with GPL benefit BSD. It's quite obvious that what people like Kirk McKusick fear is what your saying here - that when Microsoft finishes off GPL that they are going to turn around on BSD. That is why he is perpetuating the myth that Microsoft isn't discriminating between BSD and Linux. But, if you look closely at what Microsoft is saying you will find that they are indeed currently discriminating between BSD and GPL. I don't believe that it's in BSD's interest to join forces with Microsoft against the GPL (although I can't say the same for many of the GPL advocates, most of whom don't seem to like to admit that BSD exists) but I also think that it's less clear that there's benefit to BSD to immediately jump in and side with GPL against Microsoft. It's very clear that joining GPL will benefit GPL, but I simply don't see much benefit to BSD. The idea that Microsoft is going to "finish off the GPL" is pretty rediculous to start with, in fact by fighting against GPL Microsoft is giving a tremendous amount of free advertising to Linux that they never would have gotten, and also besides that it's giving a veneer of legitimacy to GPL. Everyone expects Microsoft to rail against their competitors and Microsoft has been doing it for so long now that most people don't put the credibility into Microsoft bashing a competitor that they used to do. Fundamentally, Linux is going to turn into Microsoft's Vietnam. Obviously they hate GPL and feel duty bound to fight against it - but it's an unwinnable battle that is going to suck their energy for years because there is simply no central corporation that they can force into bankruptcy. Ultimately all the GPL bashing that Microsoft is doing is simply going to help convince some people and companies to look more closely at BSD. Consider one more thing too - the computer industry has had a history of lifting the God of standardization above all others. In the server game first it was IBM then Novell then Microsoft and now it's looking more and more like Linux. Always, we overthrow one Dark Lord and sit another baby on the throne that in 10 years just grows into another Dark Lord that has to be overthrown. It's fucking stupid. What we should be aiming for is a market that is split 20% Windows, 20% BSD, 20% Linux, 20% MacOS and 20% Other where no one company has the capability of dominating the industry. This would by far be the most healthy and would fundamentally promote competition and would pour interface standards into stone so we wouldn't have all these stupid incompatabilities. If Microsoft can cut 30% of the users off of Linux and push them over to BSD then they will have done more good for the market than anyone could do. >David > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message