From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 10:01:15 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A77F416A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 10:01:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E59C43D1F; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 10:01:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@iconoplex.co.uk) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk ([195.188.15.48] helo=iconoplex.co.uk) by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1AdvUT-0008a2-Q8; Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:59:41 +0000 Message-ID: <3FFAF788.9020906@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:59:36 +0000 From: Paul Robinson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1B@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> <200401060922.47152.wes@softweyr.com> In-Reply-To: <200401060922.47152.wes@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: "Munden, Randall J" cc: chris@randomcamel.net cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 18:01:15 -0000 Wes Peters wrote: >People who hate rarely require rational reasons for hating. Attempting to >apply logic to that which is not logical is not likely to produce useful >results. > Incorrect. Everybody who hates believes they have a rational reason for doing so. That others do not think that those reasons are rational is why hatred increases, and why ultimately, Europe has, on the whole and recently (last 60 years) in a more fragmented fashion, spent the last 2,000 years at war. But that's another issue. >Advocacy is important only if you want to conquer the world. Brett >apparently does; many of us just want an operating system that meets our >needs, and don't particularly care what somebody else uses. IMO, casual >'desktop' or 'laptop' computer users are probably better served by Mac OS >X than anything I want to turn FreeBSD into, which is why my 68 year old >father is a Mac owner. > And that's all well and good. But if you don't consult end-users in general, you're going down a slippery slope. Do not be suprised if after years of hard work when you finally -RELEASE, if the world of end-users sidles up to you at the launch party and whispers in your ear "You realise what you've produced is a pile of shit, right?" - you never listened to what they wanted, and so not suprisingly you missed it. If you don't have a set of aims to measure by, it's oh so easy to claim success when all the outsiders think you've spent too much time on the crack pipe. All I'm suggesting (and no, I'm not the troll, but I'd thank him, whoever he is), is that maybe the Theo de Raadt school of thought that "only developers count" is not a grown-up, mature and efficient system of software development when we all have definite goals in mind. Nobody is asking anybody to work for free. I'm suggesting that non-developers can assist developers in refining the project's goals, aims, direction and make sure that the work the developers carry out is the best possible. -- Paul Robinson