From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 8 11:49:00 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 493BD37B401 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 11:49:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thor.acuson.com (ac17859.acuson.com [157.226.71.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08D1B43FB1 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 11:48:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02.acuson.com (mvaexch02.acuson.com [157.226.230.209]) by thor.acuson.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 (built Feb 21 2002)) with ESMTP id <0HD100DIPG8QDY@thor.acuson.com> for advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 08 Apr 2003 11:48:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 08 Apr 2003 11:39:10 -0700 Received: from dhcp-46-117.acuson.com ([157.226.46.117]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id GNSXJS6P; Tue, 08 Apr 2003 11:40:43 -0700 Content-return: allowed Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 11:48:35 -0700 From: Johnson David In-reply-to: <98he98nbau.e98@localhost.localdomain> To: swear@attbi.com Message-id: <200304081148.36134.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Organization: Siemens Medical Systems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <20030406172035.GA45332@netpublishing.com> <200304071107.40633.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <98he98nbau.e98@localhost.localdomain> cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 18:49:00 -0000 On Tuesday 08 April 2003 10:34 am, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > Johnson David writes: > > Frankly, the expections set forth by the reviewer are unrealistic. > > She > > True, but with few exceptions, it's only unrealistic because the many > people with the moderate skills needed to do the job are unwilling to > invest their time on the job. (I include myself in this category.) > I'm not sure why this is. The most skilled and ambitious seem to > prefer hacking the guts of the OS or leading their own application > project. I suspect that the job of improving the User Experience > requires too much difficult human interaction by designers, etc. The reason I said her expectations were unrealistic was because they are. As prime, and overwhelming, evidence is her OWN satement that not even Windows XP met her expectations. If the prize jewel of the dominant line of desktop operating systems can't meet her requirements, then how can we? This is not to say that FreeBSD can't be improved, or be made much more accessible to the casual user. But meeting her requirements is going to be much, much more difficult. She has not put forth Windows as an example desktop system, but as a *standard* to be met. Not even Mac OSX, which everyone agrees is aptly suitable for newbies, will meet her requirements in full. > I've observed a couple of Linux distribution developments which make > me think that the problem of "ease of use" is more one of desire to > do the job well than one of huge difficulty/manpower. Having surveyed the Linux landscape, and having once lived there, I have come to the conclusion that most distros define as "ease of use" as "simplicity". But a UNIX like system is a complex system. You cannot make it simple. I haven't tried Lycoris or Lindows, or any of the more recent Windows-like Linuxes. But when I hear stories of Lindow defaulting to a password-less root login, I don't think that's the way we want to go. I have tried some of the slightly older "easy" distributions. They seem to suffer one of two maladies. They either strip away functionality to the point that intermediate or advanced users start to suffocate, or they cover the underlying complexity with layer after layer of dialogs and wizards, to the point that it becomes much more complex than it was before. My first example was Corel LinuxOS. It kept blowing up on the install because it kept trying to probe my video card, even though the XFree86 documentation clearly and distinctly says not to do so. When I finally got it installed via an undocumented text-mode installer, it was so stripped of functionality that it was unusable. My latest example was Redhat. I friend had just installed the latest one and he needed help with getting it on the network. I found no less than three configuration dialogs on the main root menu dealing with network configuration! > Even without better automating the install process, the FreeBSD > installer could be greatly improved with *relatively* little effort. > The thing is just un-polished and unfriendly. Several confusingly- > different ways of navigating menus; use of esoteric, undocumented > terms, poor help system, poor explanations of what's happening at > each step, etc. Of course! You have no disagreement with me there. But on the other hand, I have found the FreeBSD installer to be much easier than the newbie-oriented Mandrake installer. David