From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 16:55:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8040437B9CE for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:55:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA23208; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:55:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAraaGcT; Mon Mar 27 17:55:05 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA07427; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:55:16 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003280055.RAA07427@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Oh no. The Guns Debate (was Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to To: crh@outpost.co.nz (Craig Harding) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 00:55:16 +0000 (GMT) Cc: adam@whizkidtech.net (G. Adam Stanislav), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <38DDD723.C01AD233@outpost.co.nz> from "Craig Harding" at Mar 26, 2000 09:23:47 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Criminals would be less likely to commit violent crimes if they expected > > most people to be armed and trained. > > So the solution for schoolyard gun massacres is for *all* kids to be > armed at all times? No. Enforcement of the existing laws, which make it illegal for someone under the age of 18 to carry a firearm would be enough. Arming all the teachers might have a bit of a chilling effect on kids bringing illegally obtained (the only way a kid can get a gun in the U.S. is illegally) guns to school. Arizona has a unconcealed carry, making it explicitly legal to carry a gun in public, and a small percentage of people take advantage of that to walk around with guns on their hips. The state of Arizona has one of the lowest violent crime rates of any U.S. state. Building metal detectors into the door frames might be a good start. How often are there firearm incidents in U.S. commercial aircraft these days? Let's put it another way: I can't remember the last U.S. hijacking, but I certainly remember the last British one. > Fundamentally, you seem to be arguing for an arms race. The enemy > (criminals) have guns, therefore we need guns. I'd argue that human > history would demonstrate that such an arms race is not an effective > process, except to the arms manufacturers. When you have stable entities operating out of enlightened self interest, an arms race stabilizes the situation considerably. Without nuclear weapons, for example, the U.S. and Russia would most certainly have come to blows, and there wouldn't have been any "cold" in "the cold war". In games theory, this is called a "mutual security game". The mathematics _proves_ it works. > Frankly, the fervor americans show for gun ownership in the face of such > overwhelming levels of gun-inspired violence is literally > incomprehensible. From where I stand it can only be explained as some > kind of national mental illness, or something in the water. Switzerland. That's always a very good counterexample when anyone tries to link the availability of guns to gun violence. They are orthogonal. Also, the death rate from suicide and murder in _all_ European countries is in excess of that in the U.S.. See the C.I.A. world fact book for current statistics. The overall unnatural death rate in the U.S. has been dropping, and is well below that of most other first and second world countries. I think we just have too many "reality" shows on televiaion, and that makes us think that these incidents are common, when really they are the exception, not the rule. Sensationalism by people who pretend they are journalists and read a series of 3 minute "news bites" is almost as shameful as the people who reward them for this idiocy by watching them. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message