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Date:      Tue, 16 Feb 2021 16:05:58 +0100
From:      Daniel Ebdrup Jensen <debdrup@FreeBSD.org>
To:        freebsd-doc@freebsd.org
Subject:   Re: Regarding AsciiDoctor and long lines
Message-ID:  <20210216150558.psilddo4pglnpoff@nerd-thinkpad.local>
In-Reply-To: <CAFwocyP5gWMpxEqOK1ktujX-h6Re9=y3orx5zm=anYRVgwYoWg@mail.gmail.com>
References:  <YCZ4TedB5G1sI8L1@emphyrio.blackend.org> <CAFwocyOYepw%2BntThzGp8ZNKQrPHm9bzgK60_fpfu1BZ5v39y9Q@mail.gmail.com> <20210212170859.lzzj5qrriovjd2ux@nerd-thinkpad.local> <CAFwocyOdSqnVUcRgUhiecXvG2qGasnL2VU0JugwEVc-WuvJxOg@mail.gmail.com> <CAFwocyOBLW0Siwtk0A%2BQox_MQt4KqCnMvHa_1s23RmjqqmLUkw@mail.gmail.com> <YCq31UMUj8DH2En3@emphyrio.blackend.org> <20210216074810.qwaotlonqdaulvk2@nerd-thinkpad.local> <CAOa83AcBASoD=tOxx6xtAwtf5Wz7XeTm3qacBpM9dxYvX7C0LQ@mail.gmail.com> <20210216141620.k4rwqtvwfnhk7xty@nerd-thinkpad.local> <CAFwocyP5gWMpxEqOK1ktujX-h6Re9=y3orx5zm=anYRVgwYoWg@mail.gmail.com>

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On Tue, Feb 16, 2021 at 03:39:55PM +0100, Sergio Carlavilla wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Feb 2021 at 15:16, Daniel Ebdrup Jensen <debdrup@freebsd.org> w=
rote:
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 16, 2021 at 01:01:45PM +0000, Ceri Davies wrote:
>> >On Tue, 16 Feb 2021 at 07:48, Daniel Ebdrup Jensen <debdrup@freebsd.org>
>> >wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 07:05:09PM +0100, Marc Fonvieille wrote:
>> >> >Le 12.02.2021 18:24, Sergio Carlavilla a =E9crit :
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I think the doceng team should pronounce about this.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> IMHO, use the 72 characters per line would be a problem in the fut=
ure.
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >Why it would be a problem?
>> >> >
>> >> >--
>> >> >Marc
>> >>
>> >> Hi folks,
>> >>
>> >> Can we make a compromise where real paragraphs, ie. the only things
>> >> which don't seem to need much in the way of AsciiDoctor markup, are k=
ept
>> >> at 72 columns, and headings, lists, images, include macros, variables
>> >> and custom macros are allowed to go beyond the 72 columns?
>> >> If they have to, there's always word-smithing options for trying to be
>> >> as concise as possible (without, of course, making things too obtuse -
>> >> it's a tough balance, admittedly?
>> >>
>> >> That seemed to work for DocBook, so is there a reason it won't work
>> >> here?
>> >>
>> >
>> >  For HTML output it doesn't look like it's an issue; although whitespa=
ce
>> >is preserved in the output, it's luckily irrelevant to HTML output.
>> >
>> >For other output formats such as PDF or mdoc then I can see that it is
>> >problematic to hard wrap text but that suggests that there's a tooling
>> >issue; Marc's need to be able to actually see what has changed is really
>> >important.
>> >
>> >Butting out for another 9 years now :D
>> >
>> >Ceri
>>
>> I don't see how mdoc would be impacted, since that lives in the src
>> repo.
>>
>> As for pdf files, I couldn't tell you the last time I used the handbook
>> in a pdf format, so I had to generate it by grabbing asciidoctor-pdf
>> and running it on doc/documentation/content/en/books/handbook/book.adoc -
>> and it produced [1].
>>
>> Aside from things which I think can be addressed separately, the change
>> I made in order to test the theories that pdf should work with extra
>> linebreaks inserted at 72 columns, is on page 21, on the paragraph
>> "The hardware requirements to install FreeBSD vary by.."
>>
>> To me, this looks exactly like how I would expect it to look.
>> So I think we'll be fine with this change, at least for newlines as it
>> relates to paragraphs.
>>
>> Yours,
>> Daniel Ebdrup Jensen
>>
>> [1]: https://people.freebsd.org/~debdrup/book.pdf
>
>Hi,
>
>I think that I did not explain my position correctly hehehe.
>
>What we have *right now* it's the result of a mechanical conversion.
>What we have right now *it's not* the "one sentence per line" that the
>AsciiDoctor team recommends. What we have right now it's the result
>of converting Docbook to AsciiDoc automatically.
>
>So for example, is we took for example this paragraph from[1]:
>
>[[desktop-productivity]]
>=3D=3D Productivity
>
>When it comes to productivity, users often look for an office suite or
>an easy-to-use word processor. While some <<x11-wm,desktop
>environments>> like KDE provide an office suite, there is no default
>productivity package. Several office suites and graphical word
>processors are available for FreeBSD, regardless of the installed
>window manager.
>
>Using the one sentence per line would be:
>
>[[desktop-productivity]]
>=3D=3D Productivity
>
>When it comes to productivity, users often look for an office suite or
>an easy-to-use word processor. (new line)
>While some <<x11-wm,desktop environments>> like KDE provide an office
>suite, there is no default productivity package. (new line)
>Several office suites and graphical word processors are available for
>FreeBSD, regardless of the installed window manager. (new line)
>
>I don't see the problem of using this approach.
>
>But I see a lot of problems using the 72 line approach.
>
>What problems?
>- Headings, unordered list, ordered list, qandas, tables and a long etc...
>- Another problem? Right now the paragraphs work as you expected
>  with the 72 characters per line, but what gonna happen if the AsciiDoctor
>  team changes this in the future? How is going to assume the responsibili=
ty
>  of changing everything to fit the new requirements?
>  The good point of this is that AsciiDoctor is under heavy development.
>
>And of course, I'm not saying that the current behaviour with the
>diff's are correct.
>I know that right now it's *****very***** difficult to read the diffs.
>
>For example, you can read an example of the "one sentence per line" here[2=
].
>I think here[2] you can see very clear the "one sentence per line" approac=
h.
>
>IMHO, the other approach returns to the "Docbook approach".
>
>Bye.
>
>[1] https://raw.githubusercontent.com/freebsd/freebsd-doc/main/documentati=
on/content/en/books/handbook/desktop/_index.adoc
>[2] https://raw.githubusercontent.com/freebsd/freebsd-quarterly/master/rep=
ort-sample.adoc

Hi folks,

So, at least for simple paragraphs, one sentence per line is largely=20
orthogonal to whether we try to wrap paragraphs at 72 columns?

I'm not sure what the solution is here, unfortunately. I'd just like to=20
make it easy to review, while also keeping it easy to write.

Yours,
Daniel Ebdrup Jensen

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