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Date:      Sun, 30 Jun 2002 03:25:19 -0700
From:      Terry Lambert <tlambert2@mindspring.com>
To:        Peter Wemm <peter@wemm.org>
Cc:        arch@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: Time to make the stack non-executable?
Message-ID:  <3D1EDC8F.930AE88A@mindspring.com>
References:  <20020630070005.092FD390F@overcee.wemm.org>

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Peter Wemm wrote:
> ie: most stack overflow holes would still be exploitable.  It just makes it
> a little harder since you can only push data instead of shellcode.  But
> that's all there is to it, you push your args, the set the return address
> to point to the PLT trapoline and in most cases you are home.
> 
> Making the stack non-executable is not the final solution.  It just raises
> the bar a bit.
> 
> Note that I'm not saying that we shouldn't do it, just do not have
> unrealistic expectations for it.

This is a good point.  The intent was not invulnerability; you
could still buffer overflow to get instructions to scripting
engines, like the JVM, mod_perl, etc., which "execute" data.

I was aware of the libc exploit, but didn't want to really
publicize it that much.  Too late now.  8-).  I expect that
the way around it is to statically link the program: linked
static -> no PLT.  But there are still tons of ways to exploit
badly written code.

The real benefit is to reduce the number of cases in which a
programming mistake results in an exploit, not make things
"exploit proof" (I'm a firm believer in Goedel).

Raising the bar is useful; if nothing else, it sends them to
the house without even cheap locks, and our neighbors stereo
goes missing instead of ours (not a paredo-optimal result,
but better than *our* stereo going missing).

-- Terry

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