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Mon, 17 Apr 2023 01:51:39 +0000 Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2023 01:51:34 +0000 (UTC) From: Paul Pathiakis To: Ralf Mardorf , Mario Marietto Cc: "questions@freebsd.org" Message-ID: <858859542.4652196.1681696294734@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> <20230412155252.5e38ea4728bd52dc798852fc@sohara.org> <1d0a7ed1-9330-49df-9b66-9ee4387de511@app.fastmail.com> <78F4160A-2D26-4A22-9139-A9 132FC42688@ellael.org> <8f3a86806377c2c92039eaf2765f5b85862de178.camel@riseup.net> Subject: Re: Docker List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4652195_1582799960.1681696294732" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21365 YMailNorrin X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.73 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.73)[-0.731]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[66.163.185.33:from]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com:dkim]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROMTLD(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[66.163.185.33:from]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[riseup.net,gmail.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Q095T5dFqz3Lc6 X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N ------=_Part_4652195_1582799960.1681696294732 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm sorry.... I almost ROFL when I read that FreeBSD is used 'less' in the= industry....=C2=A0 You 'like' both Linux and FreeBSD...However, you don't = seem to understand the philosophical differences in the development of the = two projects.=C2=A0=20 List of products based on FreeBSD - Wikipedia |=20 |=20 | |=20 List of products based on FreeBSD - Wikipedia | | | The LIST OF PRODUCTS....=C2=A0 That's just stuff that is commercial and bas= ed on FreeBSD....=C2=A0 Yes, I'd like to think between iOS, OSX, etc. Apple= is a massive shipper of what works.=C2=A0 I've worked on both iPhones and = Android as personal products.=C2=A0 Don't get me started on iPhone - just w= orks and Android's Linux has been less than entertaining. There's a large list of Open-Source products as well. If you looks at WHO is using FreeBSD... it's pretty much the biggest commer= cial companies in the world.=C2=A0 Why is that?=C2=A0 The philosophy of pro= per engineering.=C2=A0 Not the moronic "Cathedral vs Bazaar" mentality that= everyone said you can just keep throwing tons of non-engineering types at = problems and they'll write the works of Shakespeare.=C2=A0 Maybe writing a = piece of literature is possible.=C2=A0 Writing a bulletproof, high performa= nce OS that adheres to STANDARDS like POSIX for interoperability with other= POSIX standards is a 'novel' idea but it is the only one. Also, stripping/non-adhering to standards?=C2=A0 You get MS's no longer rel= evant Web Server.=C2=A0 Apache (uses FreeBSD too) still dominates the world= and will continue to do so.=C2=A0 Why?=C2=A0 A lot of the same FreeBSD phi= losophy.=C2=A0 Why was MS web server faster than Apache in certain benchmar= ks?=C2=A0 Not doing all the proper checking of the web standards.=C2=A0 Two= cars....=C2=A0 One beats the other 2 out of 3 times, however, it gets hija= cked 5x more than the other.=C2=A0 Do you really want the car that has no s= ecurity like locks built into it? When someone gets a degree in a technical discipline, it changes their ment= ality in how they approach problem solving.=C2=A0 Computer Science, Compute= r Engineer, Physics, Systems Analysis, etc.=C2=A0 If someone puts a piece o= f 'spaghetti' code in front of a person like that, you get what is now emer= ging here.... What problem are you trying to solve?=C2=A0 So far, you've claimed there's = a problem that there's a large pool of people that want to see docker on Fr= eeBSD.=C2=A0 Again, doubtful.=C2=A0 If there is, again, you've been repeate= dly told to start studying the Linux structures in its kernel and the corre= sponding components in FreeBSD and make an attempt to understand that Linux= is NOT standards compliant. So, as someone that sees this more and more as trolling, please stop asking= people to solve a non-problem. FreeBSD doesn't care about what the 'latest, greatest and kewl thing' that = someone thought of.=C2=A0 FreeBSD cares about building structured, ordered,= QA'd, release engineered product that isn't part of a crappy, latest and g= reatest software development paradigm.=C2=A0 Anyone care for Waterfall, dev= ops, AGILE, and everything else that falls by the wayside every 5-10 years = where a bunch of companies pop up to consult about the 'BEST WAY' to do sof= tware engineering instead of the classic examples/methods that have worked = for ages?=C2=A0 How about 'fake deadlines'?=C2=A0 They are all fake when so= meone in management doesn't understand what they are trying to accomplish.= =C2=A0 They set an artificial deadline.=C2=A0 (It's due to the fact they do= n't understand proper engineering they just think that if they don't put a = deadline, the engineers will just screw around. - VERY DOUBTFUL)=C2=A0 Yet,= I watch FreeBSD push out at least 3 full releases a year.=C2=A0 They have = a 'timeframe' that they'd like to see.=C2=A0 However, it has to pass QA and= release engineering via RCs (release clients).=C2=A0 I've seen them 'predi= ct' a norm of 3 RCs.=C2=A0 What happens if they find bugs?=C2=A0 In the com= mercial world, with AGILE, the attitude is document the bug, and keep movin= g....=C2=A0 That bug can actually make it into the release.=C2=A0 In FreeBS= D, NO!... there will be a revisiting of the implementation, the correction,= the QA process again, another RC and more testing. The day I read what AGILE was proposing was the day my classic computer sci= ence degree churned and almost puked.=C2=A0 Sorry, that's my feeling toward= s artificial deadlines, and SCRUMS, and constant churn of buggy code that s= hould be fixed waaaayyy upstream versus being allowed to linger until the n= ext Sprint or release. Paul On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 07:09:48 PM EDT, Mario Marietto wrote: =20 =20 With this general attitude, full of firm convictions and systematic stigma= tization of other=20 people's ideas (when they aren't canonical), there is not enough space for = the emergence of=20 divergent ideas,ideas that can create innovation because they are able to b= reak thought=20 patterns became too static and historicised. It is a pity because in order = to develop,=20 progress needs to be nourished above all by unpopular and divergent ideas.= =20 I'm not talking specifically about porting docker to FreeBSD, but I'm talki= ng about the way=20 you express your ideas, which, in my opinion, aren't dynamic and open to ch= anges and aren't ready to welcome innovations that come from other systems such as Linux, wh= ich always have something that's wrong. Some of you demonize Linux too much and you don't s= ee the great=20 amount of innovations it has brought. I like both Linux and FreeBSD and I a= m sad to read that the latter is always used less in the industry. There may be reasons, = but few of you=20 seem to realize that some of them are inherent to their own views about how= FreeBSD=20 should be. On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 9:32=E2=80=AFPM Ralf Mardorf wrote: There are countless container approaches available under Linux. None of these approaches are mature and almost all, if not all, will be phased out before they are mature. I guess nobody wants to experience a Canonical and/or Google universe. Somewhere in the Internet I found "While Docker is a container runtime, Kubernetes is a platform for running and managing containers from many container runtimes". At next somebody will introduce a platform that does manage platforms for platforms. An energy turnaround looks way different. --=20 Mario. =20 ------=_Part_4652195_1582799960.1681696294732 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm sorry.... I almost ROFL when I read that FreeB= SD is used 'less' in the industry....  You 'like' both Linux and FreeB= SD...
However, you don't seem to understand the philo= sophical differences in the development of the two projects. 



The LIST OF PRODUCTS....  That's just stuff that is commercial and b= ased on FreeBSD....  Yes, I'd like to think between iOS, OSX, etc. App= le is a massive shipper of what works.  I've worked on both iPhones an= d Android as personal products.  Don't get me started on iPhone - just= works and Android's Linux has been less than entertaining.

There's a large list of Open-Source products as well.

If you looks at WHO is using FreeBSD... it's pretty much the biggest = commercial companies in the world.  Why is that?  The philosophy = of proper engineering.  Not the moronic "Cathedral vs Bazaar" mentalit= y that everyone said you can just keep throwing tons of non-engineering typ= es at problems and they'll write the works of Shakespeare.  Maybe writ= ing a piece of literature is possible.  Writing a bulletproof, high pe= rformance OS that adheres to STANDARDS like POSIX for interoperability with= other POSIX standards is a 'novel' idea but it is the only one.

Also, stripping/non-adhering to standards?  You get MS's no lo= nger relevant Web Server.  Apache (uses FreeBSD too) still dominates t= he world and will continue to do so.  Why?  A lot of the same Fre= eBSD philosophy.  Why was MS web server faster than Apache in certain = benchmarks?  Not doing all the proper checking of the web standards.&n= bsp; Two cars....  One beats the other 2 out of 3 times, however, it g= ets hijacked 5x more than the other.  Do you really want the car that = has no security like locks built into it?

When someon= e gets a degree in a technical discipline, it changes their mentality in ho= w they approach problem solving.  Computer Science, Computer Engineer,= Physics, Systems Analysis, etc.  If someone puts a piece of 'spaghett= i' code in front of a person like that, you get what is now emerging here..= ..

What problem are you trying to solve?  So far, yo= u've claimed there's a problem that there's a large pool of people that wan= t to see docker on FreeBSD.  Again, doubtful.  If there is, again= , you've been repeatedly told to start studying the Linux structures in its= kernel and the corresponding components in FreeBSD and make an attempt to = understand that Linux is NOT standards compliant.

So, as = someone that sees this more and more as trolling, please stop asking people= to solve a non-problem.

FreeBSD doesn't care about what = the 'latest, greatest and kewl thing' that someone thought of.  FreeBS= D cares about building structured, ordered, QA'd, release engineered produc= t that isn't part of a crappy, latest and greatest software development par= adigm.  Anyone care for Waterfall, devops, AGILE, and everything else = that falls by the wayside every 5-10 years where a bunch of companies pop u= p to consult about the 'BEST WAY' to do software engineering instead of the= classic examples/methods that have worked for ages?  How about 'fake = deadlines'?  They are all fake when someone in management doesn't unde= rstand what they are trying to accomplish.  They set an artificial dea= dline.  (It's due to the fact they don't understand proper engineering= they just think that if they don't put a deadline, the engineers will just= screw around. - VERY DOUBTFUL)  Yet, I watch FreeBSD push out at leas= t 3 full releases a year.  They have a 'timeframe' that they'd like to= see.  However, it has to pass QA and release engineering via RCs (rel= ease clients).  I've seen them 'predict' a norm of 3 RCs.  What h= appens if they find bugs?  In the commercial world, with AGILE, the at= titude is document the bug, and keep moving....  That bug can actually= make it into the release.  In FreeBSD, NO!... there will be a revisit= ing of the implementation, the correction, the QA process again, another RC= and more testing.

The day I read what AGILE was proposin= g was the day my classic computer science degree churned and almost puked.&= nbsp; Sorry, that's my feeling towards artificial deadlines, and SCRUMS, an= d constant churn of buggy code that should be fixed waaaayyy upstream versu= s being allowed to linger until the next Sprint or release.

Paul


=20
=20
On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 07:09:48 PM EDT, Mario M= arietto <marietto2008@gmail.com> wrote: 


With this general attitude, full of firm convictions and sy=
stematic stigmatization of other 
people's ideas (when th=
ey aren't canonical), there is not enough space for the emergence of 
divergent ideas,ideas that can create innovation because they =
are able to break thought 
patterns became too static and=
 historicised. It is a pity because in order to develop, 
progress needs to be nourished above all by unpopular and divergent ideas.=
 
I'm not talking specifically about porting docker to FreeBSD, but=
 I'm talking about the way 
you express your ideas, which=
, in my opinion, aren't dynamic and open to changes and aren't
ready to welcome innovations that come from other systems such as Lin=
ux, which always have
something that's wrong. Some of you=
 demonize Linux too much and you don't see the great 
amo=
unt of innovations it has brought. I like both Linux and FreeBSD and I am s=
ad to read
that the latter is always used less in the ind=
ustry. There may be reasons, but few of you 
seem to real=
ize that some of them are inherent to their own views about how FreeBSD should be.

On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 9:32=E2=80=AFPM =
Ralf Mardorf <ralf-mardorf@riseup.net> wrote:
There are countless containe=
r approaches available under Linux. None of

these approaches are mature and almost all, if not all, will be phased

out before they are mature.



I guess nobody wants to experience a Canonical and/or Google universe.



Somewhere in the Internet I found "While Docker is a container runtime,

Kubernetes is a platform for running and managing containers from many

container runtimes".



At next somebody will introduce a platform that does manage platforms

for platforms. An energy turnaround looks way different.






-- 
Mario.



            

        

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