Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2023 01:51:34 +0000 (UTC) From: Paul Pathiakis <pathiaki2@yahoo.com> To: Ralf Mardorf <ralf-mardorf@riseup.net>, Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com> Cc: "questions@freebsd.org" <questions@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Docker Message-ID: <858859542.4652196.1681696294734@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <CA%2B1FSij0N-CRhMRXVUK81BWPTn0vDVcbQSF2Q11Zz%2BgJdL_Ddw@mail.gmail.com> References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> <CA%2B1FSij9j922Nvv1Vhn43HznwpyGT99UZsU674G9hHWzR=UhvQ@mail.gmail.com> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <CA%2B1FSijc%2B-OLNsyFNdR=jP3VzMi4zUE92i5iv9Pfg6AryDy_KQ@mail.gmail.com> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <CA%2B1FSihVrJ8cZ4ZU6mMr0sKJsZ98V4fh2vpDLugw7MGj-%2BEBPg@mail.gmail.com> <CA%2B1FSijL50mQ-HveBA4HZeNkSoaORv=aty-15nNLzn9amzY_nw@mail.gmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <CA%2B1FSigV_pPwVW%2BDd8WZYGcNQVt7%2BYOcsnJFoRhS6jL5A636pg@mail.gmail.com> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <CA%2B1FSihVPCQ6tp8u=aqnLyyOPpCMrnhYGcC8bCUgRbFHTdY5sA@mail.gmail.com> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> <20230412155252.5e38ea4728bd52dc798852fc@sohara.org> <1d0a7ed1-9330-49df-9b66-9ee4387de511@app.fastmail.com> <78F4160A-2D26-4A22-9139-A9 132FC42688@ellael.org> <8f3a86806377c2c92039eaf2765f5b85862de178.camel@riseup.net> <CA%2B1FSij0N-CRhMRXVUK81BWPTn0vDVcbQSF2Q11Zz%2BgJdL_Ddw@mail.gmail.com>
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I'm sorry.... I almost ROFL when I read that FreeBSD is used 'less' in the=
industry....=C2=A0 You 'like' both Linux and FreeBSD...However, you don't =
seem to understand the philosophical differences in the development of the =
two projects.=C2=A0=20
List of products based on FreeBSD - Wikipedia
|=20
|=20
| |=20
List of products based on FreeBSD - Wikipedia
|
|
|
The LIST OF PRODUCTS....=C2=A0 That's just stuff that is commercial and bas=
ed on FreeBSD....=C2=A0 Yes, I'd like to think between iOS, OSX, etc. Apple=
is a massive shipper of what works.=C2=A0 I've worked on both iPhones and =
Android as personal products.=C2=A0 Don't get me started on iPhone - just w=
orks and Android's Linux has been less than entertaining.
There's a large list of Open-Source products as well.
If you looks at WHO is using FreeBSD... it's pretty much the biggest commer=
cial companies in the world.=C2=A0 Why is that?=C2=A0 The philosophy of pro=
per engineering.=C2=A0 Not the moronic "Cathedral vs Bazaar" mentality that=
everyone said you can just keep throwing tons of non-engineering types at =
problems and they'll write the works of Shakespeare.=C2=A0 Maybe writing a =
piece of literature is possible.=C2=A0 Writing a bulletproof, high performa=
nce OS that adheres to STANDARDS like POSIX for interoperability with other=
POSIX standards is a 'novel' idea but it is the only one.
Also, stripping/non-adhering to standards?=C2=A0 You get MS's no longer rel=
evant Web Server.=C2=A0 Apache (uses FreeBSD too) still dominates the world=
and will continue to do so.=C2=A0 Why?=C2=A0 A lot of the same FreeBSD phi=
losophy.=C2=A0 Why was MS web server faster than Apache in certain benchmar=
ks?=C2=A0 Not doing all the proper checking of the web standards.=C2=A0 Two=
cars....=C2=A0 One beats the other 2 out of 3 times, however, it gets hija=
cked 5x more than the other.=C2=A0 Do you really want the car that has no s=
ecurity like locks built into it?
When someone gets a degree in a technical discipline, it changes their ment=
ality in how they approach problem solving.=C2=A0 Computer Science, Compute=
r Engineer, Physics, Systems Analysis, etc.=C2=A0 If someone puts a piece o=
f 'spaghetti' code in front of a person like that, you get what is now emer=
ging here....
What problem are you trying to solve?=C2=A0 So far, you've claimed there's =
a problem that there's a large pool of people that want to see docker on Fr=
eeBSD.=C2=A0 Again, doubtful.=C2=A0 If there is, again, you've been repeate=
dly told to start studying the Linux structures in its kernel and the corre=
sponding components in FreeBSD and make an attempt to understand that Linux=
is NOT standards compliant.
So, as someone that sees this more and more as trolling, please stop asking=
people to solve a non-problem.
FreeBSD doesn't care about what the 'latest, greatest and kewl thing' that =
someone thought of.=C2=A0 FreeBSD cares about building structured, ordered,=
QA'd, release engineered product that isn't part of a crappy, latest and g=
reatest software development paradigm.=C2=A0 Anyone care for Waterfall, dev=
ops, AGILE, and everything else that falls by the wayside every 5-10 years =
where a bunch of companies pop up to consult about the 'BEST WAY' to do sof=
tware engineering instead of the classic examples/methods that have worked =
for ages?=C2=A0 How about 'fake deadlines'?=C2=A0 They are all fake when so=
meone in management doesn't understand what they are trying to accomplish.=
=C2=A0 They set an artificial deadline.=C2=A0 (It's due to the fact they do=
n't understand proper engineering they just think that if they don't put a =
deadline, the engineers will just screw around. - VERY DOUBTFUL)=C2=A0 Yet,=
I watch FreeBSD push out at least 3 full releases a year.=C2=A0 They have =
a 'timeframe' that they'd like to see.=C2=A0 However, it has to pass QA and=
release engineering via RCs (release clients).=C2=A0 I've seen them 'predi=
ct' a norm of 3 RCs.=C2=A0 What happens if they find bugs?=C2=A0 In the com=
mercial world, with AGILE, the attitude is document the bug, and keep movin=
g....=C2=A0 That bug can actually make it into the release.=C2=A0 In FreeBS=
D, NO!... there will be a revisiting of the implementation, the correction,=
the QA process again, another RC and more testing.
The day I read what AGILE was proposing was the day my classic computer sci=
ence degree churned and almost puked.=C2=A0 Sorry, that's my feeling toward=
s artificial deadlines, and SCRUMS, and constant churn of buggy code that s=
hould be fixed waaaayyy upstream versus being allowed to linger until the n=
ext Sprint or release.
Paul
On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 07:09:48 PM EDT, Mario Marietto <mariett=
o2008@gmail.com> wrote: =20
=20
With this general attitude, full of firm convictions and systematic stigma=
tization of other=20
people's ideas (when they aren't canonical), there is not enough space for =
the emergence of=20
divergent ideas,ideas that can create innovation because they are able to b=
reak thought=20
patterns became too static and historicised. It is a pity because in order =
to develop,=20
progress needs to be nourished above all by unpopular and divergent ideas.=
=20
I'm not talking specifically about porting docker to FreeBSD, but I'm talki=
ng about the way=20
you express your ideas, which, in my opinion, aren't dynamic and open to ch=
anges and aren't
ready to welcome innovations that come from other systems such as Linux, wh=
ich always have
something that's wrong. Some of you demonize Linux too much and you don't s=
ee the great=20
amount of innovations it has brought. I like both Linux and FreeBSD and I a=
m sad to read
that the latter is always used less in the industry. There may be reasons, =
but few of you=20
seem to realize that some of them are inherent to their own views about how=
FreeBSD=20
should be.
On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 9:32=E2=80=AFPM Ralf Mardorf <ralf-mardorf@riseup.n=
et> wrote:
There are countless container approaches available under Linux. None of
these approaches are mature and almost all, if not all, will be phased
out before they are mature.
I guess nobody wants to experience a Canonical and/or Google universe.
Somewhere in the Internet I found "While Docker is a container runtime,
Kubernetes is a platform for running and managing containers from many
container runtimes".
At next somebody will introduce a platform that does manage platforms
for platforms. An energy turnaround looks way different.
--=20
Mario.
=20
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<html xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microso=
ft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"><head><!--[=
if gte mso 9]><xml><o:OfficeDocumentSettings><o:AllowPNG/><o:PixelsPerInch>=
96</o:PixelsPerInch></o:OfficeDocumentSettings></xml><![endif]--></head><bo=
dy><div class=3D"ydp3114de12yahoo-style-wrap" style=3D"font-family:Helvetic=
a Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><div id=3D"ydp3114de1=
2yiv0883872060"><div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, A=
rial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;" class=3D"ydp3114de12yiv0883872060ydp80269=
cd1yahoo-style-wrap"><div></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">I'm sorry.... I almost ROFL when I read that FreeB=
SD is used 'less' in the industry.... You 'like' both Linux and FreeB=
SD...</div><div dir=3D"ltr">However, you don't seem to understand the philo=
sophical differences in the development of the two projects. <br clea=
r=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr"=
data-setdir=3D"false"><a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pro=
ducts_based_on_FreeBSD" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"enhancr=
_card_2561639347">List of products based on FreeBSD - Wikipedia</a></div><d=
iv><br></div><div id=3D"ydpde9ceb65enhancr_card_2561639347" class=3D"ydpde9=
ceb65yahoo-link-enhancr-card ydpde9ceb65yahoo-link-enhancr-not-allow-cover =
ydpde9ceb65ymail-preserve-class ydpde9ceb65ymail-preserve-style" style=3D"m=
ax-width:400px;font-family:YahooSans, Helvetica Neue, Segoe UI, Helvetica, =
Arial, sans-serif" data-url=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_produc=
ts_based_on_FreeBSD" data-type=3D"YENHANCER" data-size=3D"MEDIUM" contented=
itable=3D"false"><a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_products_=
based_on_FreeBSD" style=3D"text-decoration-line: none !important; text-deco=
ration-style: solid !important; text-decoration-color: currentcolor !import=
ant; color: rgb(0, 0, 0) !important;" class=3D"ydpde9ceb65yahoo-enhancr-car=
dlink" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank"><table class=3D"ydpde9ceb65card-w=
rapper ydpde9ceb65yahoo-ignore-table" style=3D"max-width:400px" cellspacing=
=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td width=3D"400"><table c=
lass=3D"ydpde9ceb65card ydpde9ceb65yahoo-ignore-table" style=3D"max-width:4=
00px;border-width:1px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(224, 228, 233);bo=
rder-radius:2px" width=3D"100%" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=
=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td><table class=3D"ydpde9ceb65card-info ydpde9ceb65yahoo=
-ignore-table" style=3D"background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); background-re=
peat: repeat; background-attachment: scroll; background-image: none; backgr=
ound-size: auto; position: relative; z-index: 2; width: 100%; max-width: 40=
0px; border-radius: 0px 0px 2px 2px; border-top: 1px solid rgb(224, 228, 23=
3);" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td style=
=3D"background-color:#ffffff;padding:16px 0 16px 12px;vertical-align:top;bo=
rder-radius:0 0 0 2px"></td><td style=3D"vertical-align:middle;padding:12px=
24px 16px 12px;width:99%;font-family:YahooSans, Helvetica Neue, Segoe UI, =
Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;border-radius:0 0 2px 0"><h2 class=3D"ydpde9ce=
b65card-title" style=3D"font-size: 14px; line-height: 19px; margin: 0px 0px=
6px; font-family: YahooSans, Helvetica Neue, Segoe UI, Helvetica, Arial, s=
ans-serif; color: rgb(29, 34, 40); max-width: 314px;">List of products base=
d on FreeBSD - Wikipedia</h2><p class=3D"ydpde9ceb65card-description" style=
=3D"font-size: 12px; line-height: 16px; margin: 0px; color: rgb(151, 158, 1=
68);"></p></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></t=
body></table></a></div><div><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false=
">The LIST OF PRODUCTS.... That's just stuff that is commercial and b=
ased on FreeBSD.... Yes, I'd like to think between iOS, OSX, etc. App=
le is a massive shipper of what works. I've worked on both iPhones an=
d Android as personal products. Don't get me started on iPhone - just=
works and Android's Linux has been less than entertaining.</div><div dir=
=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"fa=
lse">There's a large list of Open-Source products as well.<br></div><div di=
r=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"f=
alse">If you looks at WHO is using FreeBSD... it's pretty much the biggest =
commercial companies in the world. Why is that? The philosophy =
of proper engineering. Not the moronic "Cathedral vs Bazaar" mentalit=
y that everyone said you can just keep throwing tons of non-engineering typ=
es at problems and they'll write the works of Shakespeare. Maybe writ=
ing a piece of literature is possible. Writing a bulletproof, high pe=
rformance OS that adheres to STANDARDS like POSIX for interoperability with=
other POSIX standards is a 'novel' idea but it is the only one.</div><div =
dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D=
"false">Also, stripping/non-adhering to standards? You get MS's no lo=
nger relevant Web Server. Apache (uses FreeBSD too) still dominates t=
he world and will continue to do so. Why? A lot of the same Fre=
eBSD philosophy. Why was MS web server faster than Apache in certain =
benchmarks? Not doing all the proper checking of the web standards.&n=
bsp; Two cars.... One beats the other 2 out of 3 times, however, it g=
ets hijacked 5x more than the other. Do you really want the car that =
has no security like locks built into it?<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-se=
tdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">When someon=
e gets a degree in a technical discipline, it changes their mentality in ho=
w they approach problem solving. Computer Science, Computer Engineer,=
Physics, Systems Analysis, etc. If someone puts a piece of 'spaghett=
i' code in front of a person like that, you get what is now emerging here..=
..</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" d=
ata-setdir=3D"false">What problem are you trying to solve? So far, yo=
u've claimed there's a problem that there's a large pool of people that wan=
t to see docker on FreeBSD. Again, doubtful. If there is, again=
, you've been repeatedly told to start studying the Linux structures in its=
kernel and the corresponding components in FreeBSD and make an attempt to =
understand that Linux is NOT standards compliant.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" dat=
a-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">So, as =
someone that sees this more and more as trolling, please stop asking people=
to solve a non-problem.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></=
div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">FreeBSD doesn't care about what =
the 'latest, greatest and kewl thing' that someone thought of. FreeBS=
D cares about building structured, ordered, QA'd, release engineered produc=
t that isn't part of a crappy, latest and greatest software development par=
adigm. Anyone care for Waterfall, devops, AGILE, and everything else =
that falls by the wayside every 5-10 years where a bunch of companies pop u=
p to consult about the 'BEST WAY' to do software engineering instead of the=
classic examples/methods that have worked for ages? How about 'fake =
deadlines'? They are all fake when someone in management doesn't unde=
rstand what they are trying to accomplish. They set an artificial dea=
dline. (It's due to the fact they don't understand proper engineering=
they just think that if they don't put a deadline, the engineers will just=
screw around. - VERY DOUBTFUL) Yet, I watch FreeBSD push out at leas=
t 3 full releases a year. They have a 'timeframe' that they'd like to=
see. However, it has to pass QA and release engineering via RCs (rel=
ease clients). I've seen them 'predict' a norm of 3 RCs. What h=
appens if they find bugs? In the commercial world, with AGILE, the at=
titude is document the bug, and keep moving.... That bug can actually=
make it into the release. In FreeBSD, NO!... there will be a revisit=
ing of the implementation, the correction, the QA process again, another RC=
and more testing.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">The day I read what AGILE was proposin=
g was the day my classic computer science degree churned and almost puked.&=
nbsp; Sorry, that's my feeling towards artificial deadlines, and SCRUMS, an=
d constant churn of buggy code that should be fixed waaaayyy upstream versu=
s being allowed to linger until the next Sprint or release.</div><div dir=
=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"fa=
lse">Paul<br></div><div><br></div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
=20
</div></div></div></div><div id=3D"ydpec5a5c97yiv0883872060yqt85925=
" class=3D"ydpec5a5c97yiv0883872060yqt3369202991"><div id=3D"ydpec5a5c97yiv=
0883872060ydpf254ac39yahoo_quoted_2673169957" class=3D"ydpec5a5c97yiv088387=
2060ydpf254ac39yahoo_quoted">
<div style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, s=
ans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
=20
<div>
On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 07:09:48 PM EDT, Mario M=
arietto <marietto2008@gmail.com> wrote:
</div>
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div><div id=3D"ydpec5a5c97yiv0883872060ydpf254ac39yiv82516=
76576"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div id=3D"ydpec5a5c97yiv0883872060ydpf254ac39=
yiv8251676576m_-55360185400925631m_-4778369659037062598gmail-tw-target-text=
-container"><div id=3D"ydpec5a5c97yiv0883872060ydpf254ac39yiv8251676576m_-5=
5360185400925631m_-4778369659037062598gmail-tw-target-text-container"><pre =
dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"ydpec5a5c97yiv0883872060ydpf254ac39yiv8251676576m_-553601=
85400925631m_-4778369659037062598gmail-tw-target-text" style=3D"text-align:=
left;"><font size=3D"4"><span style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms, sans-seri=
f;" lang=3D"en">With this general attitude, full of firm convictions and sy=
stematic stigmatization of other <br clear=3D"none">people's ideas (when th=
ey aren't canonical), there is not enough space for the emergence of <br cl=
ear=3D"none">divergent ideas,ideas that can create innovation because they =
are able to break thought <br clear=3D"none">patterns became too static and=
historicised. It is a pity because in order to develop, <br clear=3D"none"=
>progress needs to be nourished above all by unpopular and divergent ideas.=
<br clear=3D"none">I'm not talking </span></font><span lang=3D"en"><font s=
tyle=3D"background-color:inherit;" size=3D"4"><span style=3D"font-family:co=
mic sans ms, sans-serif;">specifically about porting docker to FreeBSD, but=
I'm talking about the way <br clear=3D"none">you express your ideas, which=
, in my opinion, aren't dynamic and open to changes and aren't<br clear=3D"=
none">ready to welcome innovations that come from other systems such as Lin=
ux, which always have<br clear=3D"none">something that's wrong. Some of you=
demonize Linux too much and you don't see the great <br clear=3D"none">amo=
unt of innovations it has brought. I like both Linux and FreeBSD and I am s=
ad to read<br clear=3D"none">that the latter is always used less in the ind=
ustry. There may be reasons, but few of you <br clear=3D"none">seem to real=
ize that some of them are inherent to their own views about how FreeBSD <br=
clear=3D"none">should be.</span></font></span></pre></div><pre dir=3D"ltr"=
id=3D"ydpec5a5c97yiv0883872060ydpf254ac39yiv8251676576m_-55360185400925631=
m_-4778369659037062598gmail-tw-target-text" style=3D"text-align:left;"></pr=
e></div></div><br clear=3D"none"><div id=3D"ydpec5a5c97yiv0883872060ydpf254=
ac39yiv8251676576yqt53180" class=3D"ydpec5a5c97yiv0883872060ydpf254ac39yiv8=
251676576yqt9958437643"><div class=3D"ydpec5a5c97yiv0883872060ydpf254ac39yi=
v8251676576gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"ydpec5a5c97yiv0883872060y=
dpf254ac39yiv8251676576gmail_attr">On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 9:32=E2=80=AFPM =
Ralf Mardorf <<a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"mailto:ralf-mardorf@riseup.net" =
rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">ralf-mardorf@riseup.net</a>> wrote:<b=
r clear=3D"none"></div><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border=
-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;" class=3D"ydpec5a5c97yiv=
0883872060ydpf254ac39yiv8251676576gmail_quote">There are countless containe=
r approaches available under Linux. None of<br clear=3D"none">
these approaches are mature and almost all, if not all, will be phased<br c=
lear=3D"none">
out before they are mature.<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
I guess nobody wants to experience a Canonical and/or Google universe.<br c=
lear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
Somewhere in the Internet I found "While Docker is a container runtime,<br =
clear=3D"none">
Kubernetes is a platform for running and managing containers from many<br c=
lear=3D"none">
container runtimes".<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
At next somebody will introduce a platform that does manage platforms<br cl=
ear=3D"none">
for platforms. An energy turnaround looks way different.<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
</blockquote></div></div><br clear=3D"all"><br clear=3D"none"><span>-- </sp=
an><br clear=3D"none"><div dir=3D"ltr">Mario.<br clear=3D"none"></div>
</div></div></div>
</div>
</div></div></body></html>
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