From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 1 19:12:24 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AE926C5 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2013 19:12:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ryao@gentoo.org) Received: from smtp.gentoo.org (dev.gentoo.org [IPv6:2001:470:ea4a:1:214:c2ff:fe64:b2d3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BBECA86 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2013 19:12:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (pool-173-77-245-118.nycmny.fios.verizon.net [173.77.245.118]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: ryao) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C943833DB8C for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2013 19:12:21 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <5159DBFC.4050106@gentoo.org> Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2013 15:11:56 -0400 From: Richard Yao User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130324 Thunderbird/17.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: considering i386 as a tier 1 architecture References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="----enig2FGGUETWEMAPTDISHVSAX" X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2013 19:12:24 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) ------enig2FGGUETWEMAPTDISHVSAX Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 04/01/2013 12:48 AM, Eitan Adler wrote: > Hi, >=20 > I am writing this email to discuss the i386 architecture in FreeBSD. >=20 > Computers are getting faster, but also more memory intensive. I > can not find a laptop with less than 4 or 8 GB of RAM. Modern > browsers, such as Firefox, require a 64bit architecture and 8GB of > RAM. A 32 bit platform is not enough now a days on systems with > more than 4 GB of RAM. A 32 bit core now is like 640K of RAM in > the 1990s. Even in the embedded world ARM is going 64 bit with > ARMv8. >=20 > Secondly, the i386 port is unmaintained. Very few developers run > it, so it doesn't get the testing it deserves. Almost every user > post or bug report I see from a x86 compatible processor is running > amd64. When was the last time you booted i386 outside a virtual > machine? Often times the build works for amd64 but fails for i386. >=20 > Finally, others are dropping support for i386. Windows Server 2008 > is 64 bit only, OSX Mountain Lion (10.8) is 64-bit only. Users > and downstream vendors no longer care about preserving ancient > hardware. >=20 > I hope this email is enough to convince you that on this date we > should drop support for the i386 architecture for 10.0 to tier 2 > and replace it with the ARM architecture as Tier 1. >=20 > -- > Eitan Adler > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.o= rg" >=20 Eitan, Your arguments against 32-bit are undermined by your statement that FreeBSD should replace i386 with ARM. ARM is a 32-bit architecture While there is a 64-bit version of ARM in development, there are a few issues to consider. First, none of the compilers in base support it. Second, every market that uses ARM is fine with 32-bit hardware. Many intentionally use older versions of ARM (such as ARMv5) specifically because such chips are cheaper, more power efficient and get the job done. ARMv8, the 64-bit version of ARM, is only necessary in Intel's territory, which is an area where ARM is attempting to expand. There is no reason to think that 32-bit ARM will be phased out in existing applications. In addition, the idea that others are dropping support for 32-bit hardware is somewhat exaggerated. Wikipedia states that Microsoft Windows Server 2008 runs on IA-32, which is a synonym for 32-bit x86. In addition, Apple hardware is traditionally 64-bit. They only had 32-bit support because of a brief stint with Intel's 32-bit only Yonah chip during the Intel transition. I see no problem with demoting i386 to Tier 2 status. The committers' guide specifically states: > Architectures reaching end of life may also be moved from Tier 1 > status to Tier 2 status as the availability of resources to continue > to maintain the system in a Production Quality state diminishes. Additionally, while it is true that ARM's important is increasing, you do not make a cohesive argument for ARM's promotion to Tier 1 status. The committers' guide does suggests that there must be at least 2 Tier 1 architectures, but it is not clear to me that architecture should be ARM:= > Tier 1 embedded architectures must be able to cross-build packages on > at least one other Tier 1 architecture. On that note, I imagine that this would be a decision for the FreeBSD core team to make. I am not a FreeBSD committer, so what I think probably does not carry much weight with them. ------enig2FGGUETWEMAPTDISHVSAX Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJRWdv+AAoJECDuEZm+6Exkeh0QAKK8zd5rBj+gET3aEnCvMoVJ 1rI0Gd+Enf2Ejmbl5cBvTLxQp7M443xxF2GmcllAs9j8g5702mL5yefxgektn0sE cJ0PNgIZ264Xqaq1y65u/+67+inCKHe9BBcub25VZ3niBdvV6sHlWBqy0qYPQudG iDPRUWV0+48fWabOXNr9eAxMDTUuRnUWO91/z13u1pwGA3lKX4KNpQLEV/Bn0BGB sev/Mwf4kyICv03z1GmhFYi1and9X9zIgDbLuIve6Hp+MDkSOtvPlP+k71HEdyWi 46BPHsvbEQaq6t01eQkG5zBl15abaKY5qKdmzNnU3C+GQGyi3+lgxiZk5K3VyZR8 CeOpaRiapcFV1HM3EpEgXEek7R0fopyjeOgAeGuieiujCZ3Ek7C9ok8THRXC5MXU WKDqADUBCDHYcbfjCA4qWrl68FFT890+gwjd5g+hhmRGsaFCPULNmSzMx5fBevoY GsaZdx2Tr9y9fosQH1Gw8nXoRkPwWB183VlCPFAn6lz5V/j66JegyDaOQgkME8Rv cv0pVDxKTXMjERJH3LpGulReINvuMff1muOHap2QOzYFWz0CoLyciIZ5sd6OecUp q8eC1DZoYEBqiuSrf0ScrxlKNqwGMziECllwlDnwkQLlIJyW+0TclHnrtTPWFxaq 5HvdjH2Iv4So5YnQsNTu =nskH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------enig2FGGUETWEMAPTDISHVSAX--