Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 02:36:24 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein <bright@mu.org> To: Dan Partelly <dan_partelly@rdsor.ro>, Peter Beckman <beckman@angryox.com> Cc: FreeBSD Hackers <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>, Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@ntlworld.com>, Dmitry Sivachenko <trtrmitya@gmail.com>, Mark Heily <mark@heily.com> Subject: Re: relaunchd: a portable clone of launchd Message-ID: <5698CBA8.8070501@mu.org> In-Reply-To: <07D83705-D89F-4125-B57B-920EDEBC8A85@rdsor.ro> References: <5687D3A9.5050400@NTLWorld.com> <CAGfo=8kXzNVKy9gx0jkME4iRRyrgrsfpPnW3nYrZC0gysapPcg@mail.gmail.com> <817860B6-5D67-41A3-ADD7-9757C7E67C35@gmail.com> <alpine.BSF.2.20.1601081020270.34827@nog2.angryox.com> <07D83705-D89F-4125-B57B-920EDEBC8A85@rdsor.ro>
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+1 :) On 1/10/16 2:36 AM, Dan Partelly wrote: > Copying the linux way of doing things should not be a goal of the BSDs. It is enough that unfortunately we are forced > into Linuxisms and associated wrappers to support modern GPUs. Understandable , given how few ppl work on BSDs, > and how little code contributions do the BSDs receive from the massive enterprises they power (with > some notable exceptions) Let me use this opportunity to thank Juniper for the glorified printf system > they contributed to FreeBSD . > > Can the BSDs go forward with rc systems alone ? Sure they can , at least for the time beeing, and we will > continue to use them. But innovation is desirable. > > Systemd might be a terrible implementation or not (I dont know, I dont use it) but the ideas behind it are sane. > > rc systems are indeed robust, but they should be ancient history. They are nothing but glorified autoexec.bat systems. > Modern OSes need sophisticated dynamic service management systems, fault management, transactional OS > configuration databases, centralised event systems supporting kernel sources. > > > This is the problem domain things like sytemd and dbus are tring to solve. They might doit the wrong way, I personally think > the direction Solaris took to solve some of those problems is the way to go, but at least they are trying to do something, and > they clearly explored the problem space. > > > Meanwhile here, some engineers are trying to change the FreeBSD OS configuration to a new DSL, but without any consideration for > issues of centralising OS databases and add innovation like transactions and full concurrency safety. > > YOu gotta ask yourself, since it is only a language change, why even doit ????? It adds no technical innovations, the new > systems are not well enough thought out to support technical innovation added incrementally later. So why are they doing it ? > To change the DSL only ? By now all BSDs user are familiar with all adhoc databases the OS offer. We are familiar (experts, even) with > the language they use. Changing this language , when no technical innovation is present, is , in my opinion, ill-advised. > > It is change for the sake of change, it is change because “someone wrote the code”, not because it solves any real problem , or is a well > thought out engineering solution. I really hope someone from the developers wakes up and vetoes those changes for the sake of change, > like Junipers libxo, and attemtps to change the DSLs for the sake of changing the DSL. > > > >> On 08 Jan 2016, at 17:20, Peter Beckman <beckman@angryox.com> wrote: >> >> On Thu, 7 Jan 2016, Dmitry Sivachenko wrote: >> >>>> On 07 Jan 2016, at 05:12, Mark Heily <mark@heily.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jan 2, 2016 at 8:42 AM, Jonathan de Boyne Pollard >>>> <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@ntlworld.com> wrote: >>>>> I recommend, to anyone going down this route, looking towards finishing >>>>> systembsd, especially instead of inventing a wholly new suite of protocols. >>>>> >>>>> * https://uglyman.kremlin.cc/gitweb/gitweb.cgi?p=systembsd.git >>>>> * >>>>> http://homepage.ntlworld.com./jonathan.deboynepollard/FGA/debian-systemd-packaging-hoo-hah.html >>>>> * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10176275 >>>>> >>>>> The reason is that finishing systemdbsd will make happy all of the people >>>>> who want the desktop environments whose design is driven largely by Linux to >>>>> work on FreeBSD/PC-BSD. The desktop environments that they'd like to use >>>>> have been or are being modified to work with these daemons, over this D-Bus >>>>> protocol. >>>>> >>>> I strongly disagree with your recommendation to adopt DBus and systemd >>>> as core components of FreeBSD. >>>> >>>> From a practical perspective, the proposal has a low probability of >>>> success. Systemd is written for Linux and is largely driven by a >>>> commercial Linux vendor. It is a rapidly moving target, with no sense >>>> of scope or boundaries. It eagerly consumes the latest and greatest >>>> innovations in the Linux kernel, with open disdain for portability. >>>> >>>> From a philosophical perspective, I don't agree with the direction >>>> that systemd is taking Linux. It's one of the reasons I switched to >>>> BSD after many years in the Linux camp. To quote Spock, "Logic clearly >>>> dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". In >>>> case of FreeBSD, this means that the needs of the desktop users should >>>> not outweigh the needs of the server/jail/embedded/appliance users. My >>>> concern with systemd and DBus is that these tools are highly >>>> desktop-centric, and introduce a large degree of unwanted change, >>>> complexity, and risk to everyone else. >>> >>> I totally agree. >>> >>> systemd is an ugly beast, solving simple problem in complex way. >>> >>> After using FreeBSD's rc system for years, I think that switching to something systemd-related would be huge mistake. >>> No reason to clone everything that happens in Linux world. >> Utterly and strongly agreed. >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Peter Beckman Internet Guy >> beckman@angryox.com <mailto:beckman@angryox.com> http://www.angryox.com/ <http://www.angryox.com/>; >> --------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org <mailto:freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org> mailing list >> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers <https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers>; >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org <mailto:freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org>" > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"
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