Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 23:03:47 -0600 From: Janketh Jay <jankyj@unfs.us> To: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why Are You NOT Using FreeBSD? Message-ID: <4FCC41B3.5050801@unfs.us> In-Reply-To: <3571658.uJKDpMr1h0@x220.ovitrap.com> References: <CAGFTUwOAKp2wWm=42Y5wBMpVytYXQtmJ-gx4rVtGvGRKWGg6iw@mail.gmail.com> <1689819.en9M6NpKuY@x220.ovitrap.com> <4FCC1566.1060907@unfs.us> <3571658.uJKDpMr1h0@x220.ovitrap.com>
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi Erich, On 06/03/2012 08:50 PM, Erich Dollansky wrote: > Hi, > > On 03 June 2012 PM 7:54:46 Janketh Jay wrote: >>>> >>> a person who operated Windows for some years does not see >>> him/herself as a newcomer but still fails on FreeBSD. The word >>> goes around then that FreeBSD is bad. >>> >> This is fine, actually. As mentioned, it's not intended for >> individuals that want everything handed to them on a silver >> platter. Anyone who labels FreeBSD as "bad" because they aren't >> familiar with it is an idiot, IMO. This isn't Microsoft, no >> matter how much people might want it to be. And, it never will >> be. Use this list if you have questions about ports. Is that >> really so difficult for people to do? If so, no big deal. The >> FreeBSD developers, contributors and maintainers are not here to >> hold people's hands. We're here to help people help >> themselves... >> > how will you ever get newcomers to FreeBSD if not via Linux? > > Why should people running Linux switch to FreeBSD? > > This is a dangerous route. > > Did you forget how you started with FreeBSD? > We don't need people from Linux to migrate to FreeBSD. There are plenty of others out there that simply want to "try" it. Generally, Linux users are very adamant about it. So, they continue to use it regardless of what else is out there. Same for Windows and Mac users. To each their own. If someone feels the need to check it out, the more the merrier. FreeBSD isn't in the business of "sucking people in". Curiosity alone is enough to keep people using it. Especially when they find out how solid it is. As far as how I started using it, this had nothing to do with Linux. In fact, I used BSD before I even gave Linux a second thought. I was intrigued with the fact that many large businesses (Including Microsoft) used FreeBSD as their server OS. The rest is history. I began using it - I struggled - I read the Handbook - I asked questions. That's it. I'm extremely happy I did so and I can't fathom migrating my production systems to anything else. >>> You are really working hard to keep the FreeBSD installations >>> low. It does not help FreeBSD if it is believed to be an elite >>> operating system. >>> >>> Linux is by no way less complex and still many more people us >>> it. >>> >>> Why? >>> >> FreeBSD *IS* an elite operating system. By "elite" I don't mean >> what most people will think I mean. I'm simply stating that it >> takes a reasonable amount of time to grow comfortable with it. >> Along with any "UNIX-like" OS. If it were really simple to use, >> everyone would be using it, right? > > This should not be a reason to make its use more difficult for > beginners. > > What will happen to FreeBSD when there are not beginners anymore? > > You cannot ask people to learn first with other operating systems > and then move to FreeBSD. > > At least I can still claim that I learned with BSD at the > university. This is even the main reason for using FreeBSD. > > I do not understand why people get pushed away instead of offering > them a helping hand. This is at least what I do whenever possible. > There will always be beginners. People are curious. That's how everything gets it's start. Well, besides Microsoft who was basically the only supplier of personal computers in the beginning. No one is asking anyone to learn something else first. People can come straight to FreeBSD (or any BSD for that matter) directly out of the womb. However, expecting hand-holding is something that simply isn't going to happen. In fact, I've RTFM so many times it makes me sick. But, that sickness has turned into a love. It's all about solidity, man! Curiosity kills every cat. :) There is no reason to assume that people get pushed away from using FBSD. There are plenty of resources out there where people have gone above and beyond to help n00bs out. There is how-to for almost anything! On top of that, the forums and mailing lists are STILL helping people that refuse to RTFM. There are exponential amounts of help out there. If people aren't willing to learn, that's where the problem ensues. >> >> And Linux, as far as I'm concerned is more complex than FreeBSD. > > I would not use the word complex, I use the word chaotic. > I can agree with "chaotic"... >> Especially it's package management. I don't like the idea of >> having no choices when I install an application. Of course, I >> could go WAY out > > This depends very much on the distribution. > > This even changes very fast from release to release. > The release changes are actually what drive me the most nuts. I can't remember the last time I was able to update a Debian or Ubuntu release without having to do SERIOUS work to make it function the same as before. I don't like dealing with that. >> of my way to create, build, and install an SRPM, but bugger that! >> It's not easy! Linux is only thought of as easy because of the >> graphical installer and the fact that it installs X out of the >> box. FreeBSD used to do that, actually. Back in the 4.X days you >> could choose to install XFree86 and KDE, Gnome, etc... But, that >> was a waste of valuable disk space in the long run. > > How big is X and how big is a DVD? Why is it possible for others to > pack it onto a DVD? > I'm not talking about a DVD. FreeBSD supplies the latest (at the time of release) Xorg and many WM/DE's on their DVD. I've just gone the route of "boot-only" since about FBSD 5.X. It's much easier to run a "pkg_add -r xfce4" and just be done than waste all the time downloading and burning a DVD. > I did not even notice that X is not part of the installation media > any more as I always try to install the ports from the current > ports tree. > I agree. I use ports for just about everything. Initially, to get things up and running, I install mandatory software with "pkg_add". Then, I simply update using the ports tree. I can't think of the last time I had an issue updating my previously installed packages via the ports tree. Perhaps you could bust out another fresh install of FBSD and let us know what issues you're having. The maintainers would *LOVE* that. Seriously. How are we supposed to make things better if no one lets us know what is wrong? All bitching aside, just let us know, bro. We're more than happy to make things work properly. Regards, Janky Jay, III -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/MQa8ACgkQGK3MsUbJZn5NcACeMSegOPR+X9OlMW4g2FnfKpGi XVQAnjRYBZvokvtym7oUItTsP44iFn2S =OVsD -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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