From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Dec 19 01:14:39 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE5C5134586D for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 01:14:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3301890418 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 01:14:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id EAB1E134586C; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 01:14:38 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8118134586B for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 01:14:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-qk1-x734.google.com (mail-qk1-x734.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::734]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6768190417 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 01:14:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-qk1-x734.google.com with SMTP id g125so10500688qke.4 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2018 17:14:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=nOIfegSwgCdeZrue+N/q0VezOeVsN1ab0y8Hq+XTUXk=; b=k2te4VHPQJZxhEqXPtIRpxVNunxsp0tu7ByYcBCWFFVJbc/HQG/MXIqP/2fZXew824 0su2sjT30HAt4uH5zFMjeRTeubAH74ojC9W9uVRDdwIEZPYhAoq9fZQ+xhzROTEWhpwm wP27jPl2ZwMNVYl8G51nmG+6iBmNXJYNEOaYQLetu9zYjCmoS2UdXKGeVXX+0mQCM9Wc qjwR5t7yAT0NNruAismWn7pcFHwC/qYukWiWXbewnvGqXgjKRmUZe0f8Q7571iOIDnHa BX19ZB/AJOGWM73Jqvyxfo9hCWoAg463ZBTZQ1p1XKkaSK0ZEgZQs3dNJCJ12yr2oKxv e3PQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=nOIfegSwgCdeZrue+N/q0VezOeVsN1ab0y8Hq+XTUXk=; b=Di6nCOHjojhPqjdlTIhAk8f0Mc/6U8XIjDpXCEmSw8pwp6H3OJ//7U6brLMXB4oO0J lzIMbY3Nljs/N3K2MioOYj+VWnVHOtRj78nSzd2BXvl2Lr7vPRMwOtRqpsMh2AR3avPT VmlrfJPVdJ5i22J5Db8RKvuytZ5OsK37Au6p8AML1a8I7pxcqejfVxb72Mh/EjJSLo9w Hou74bMjNzBMbtkmHicx8QKcVqMn6u2QDccMJplYuJRSqjyW/l4Q6bVlgADHdYGukY+o DAmngv0q0oq0XWB2ji5GX98HyKKl8IFg4NWp0qIEvO44rYUjxv5X0iTQcFwbBlrJuyX0 MJZw== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWbs+dOyPYnku5o0dDhi5vtr2Ezu5PWR/dDX23UR6RCG0q0wGR+/ B5ImZd2DLuAinf8UTvWjzEOOdtma8xQtOITIpCxo4P3p6eg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/X+gYXVzTm4Q9AS8XF5hxTX73uvwmyotqnMKEnAvjA1uU+YKcF8PIByGJgkQ/47yB8zfPcgbo0W4tkCG2qor1Q= X-Received: by 2002:a37:6c05:: with SMTP id h5mr18593373qkc.175.1545182077363; Tue, 18 Dec 2018 17:14:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <201812182338.wBINcHKi057605@fire.js.berklix.net> In-Reply-To: <201812182338.wBINcHKi057605@fire.js.berklix.net> From: Warner Losh Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 18:14:25 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: A proposal for code removal prior to FreeBSD 13 To: "Julian H. Stacey" Cc: "Rodney W. Grimes" , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , George Neville-Neil X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 6768190417 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.99 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.988,0]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 01:14:40 -0000 On Tue, Dec 18, 2018 at 4:38 PM Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > And you are trying to conflate two different issues. timed is not useful. > > Exageration is not useful ;-) Timed is useful. > It has an extremely use usefulness index to the vast majority of our user base. Absent good metric data about what our users have deployed, I can't say that with certainty. But given the difficulty of running a timed network, both in terms of setup and operations, as well as its severe technical limitations wrt to competitors (ntp, ptp, openntp, etc) I'd be very very surprised if the number of current deployments are in double digits. > > Technically, it's a crappy solution. > > OK. But in a heterogenous net, it's nice to retain flexibility. > I'm not sure I understand how that helps. timed is a bit of a niche thing, that works only on a local area segment over ICMP. ntp, on the other hand, is widely implemented and deployed and gets through most firewalls. > > The data is also > > unencrypted / unauthenticated, with no provision to change that. This > makes > > it spoofable. > > Some suggested years past: Run over a ssh. Not tried as here it's inside a > wall. > >From the timed man page: "The average network time is computed from measurements of clock differences using the ICMP timestamp request message." How are you going to run that on top of ssh? I didn't think ssh had a ICMP mode... However, having said all that, there's a volunteer who will package up timed into a port. I'm working with him right now to fix some minor issues in the straight copy of the timed stuff into my repo and that should be live shortly after that, so anybody that needs it can do 'pkg add timed' Warner