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Date:      Tue, 15 May 2001 12:24:49 -0700 (PDT)
From:      Tim Erlin <tperlin@yahoo.com>
To:        David Johnson <djohnson@acuson.com>, tlambert2@mindspring.com
Cc:        freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: I'm leaving
Message-ID:  <20010515192449.181.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com>
In-Reply-To: <3B01767A.1C24A9D7@acuson.com>

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All of this conversation seems to center on the
fact/assumption that there is/can be only one
distribution of FreeBSD. I would think that if the
target market were Joe Average, a 'Consumer' version
might be offered. It could include things like
suggested defaults for the most basic functionality,
installation with pretty pictures, etc.

I've never gotten the sense (after maybe 6 months of
actually using FreeBSD) that anybody wanted FreeBSD on
my parent's PC. I haven't been reading the advocacy
list, so maybe I missed it, but I certainly didn't
install FreeBSD because I thought it would make a
great workstation. 

Of course, the guy who started this thread wasn't
looking to replace his NT workstations either, if I
recall...

--Tim

--- David Johnson <djohnson@acuson.com> wrote:
> Terry Lambert wrote:
> 
> > This is really insufficient, I think.
> 
> Okay, you pushed by hot button...
> 
> If you desire a default GUI desktop preconfigured
> for newbies, to be
> standard on each and every install, then you have to
> start somewhere. In
> the mean time, it may be prudent to consider that
> some folks don't want
> a standard default desktop, let alone one
> preconfigured for newbies.
> 
> > Unfortunately, you can't replace the entire
> install
> > process and cut your own CDROMs, and still call it
> > FreeBSD, according to the trademark holders.
> 
> No one (I think) was suggesting anything like this.
> The closest
> suggestions were to improve what was already there.
> Using a port is
> still operating within "the system". No one needs to
> burn their own
> newbie-CDs.
> 
> Going up to the core team and saying "we want you to
> change x, y and z,
> is doomed to failure. However, getting a port
> committed is easy. Then
> you can go up to the core team and say "we want you
> to change just x
> because y and z are already on the CD". Presumably
> "x" would be another
> option in the "choose desktop" menu.
> 
> > Having to grovel in the bowels of the packaging
> system
> > is a non-starter: if I have to go through all the
> > partitioning and other crap, or I boot to a
> non-graphical
> > login, well, you've already lost me, if I'm Joe
> Average
> > User...
> 
> Joe Average doesn't have to do any of that crap for
> Windows, because his
> computer manufacturer has done it for him already.
> His idea of
> "installation" is handing his credit card over to
> the cashier. FreeBSD
> is already *easier* to install than Windows. It only
> seems harder
> because it doesn't come preinstalled with your new
> machine.
> 
> Speaking of partitioning, compare the FreeBSD fdisk
> to the Windows
> fdisk...
> 
> And there have been many times when I wished Windows
> had a non-graphical
> login. Like those times that Windows won't boot up
> because the video
> isn't configured right, and I can't configure the
> video right because I
> can't boot up Windows...
> 
> The biggest attraction of FreeBSD and other unices
> is the control the
> user has over the system. Much of this control comes
> through choice. If
> you eliminate this choice you destroy the control,
> and FreeBSD loses
> it's attraction. If KDE is to be the mandatory
> desktop, then the GNOME
> user has to go through the completely pointless
> process of uninstalling
> KDE (if it's even possible) or keeping it around
> just to take up space.
> And vice versa. And why should those wanting a
> firewall have to endure
> KDE/GNOME/QT/GTK/X11?
> 
> It is sufficient for sysinstall to ask me if I want
> X11, and then if I
> answer 'yes' to ask me what desktop/wm I want. This
> is how the process
> currently works. The original posting on this
> subject (at least how I
> interpreted it) was: 1) make a non-mandatory default
> desktop if no other
> desktop was chosen, and 2) add icons and menu items
> to the desktop
> packages that point to the FreeBSD documentation.
> The first is a
> decision to be made by the core team. The second can
> be done by anyone
> by submitting a port.
> 
> In fact, now that I think about it, you could call
> this port
> "freebsd-desktop", and it would add FreeBSD specific
> icons and menu
> items to any installed desktop that it detects. 
> 
> David
> 
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