Date: 25 Apr 2001 23:15:53 EST From: "Mark Sergeant" <msergeant@snsonline.net> To: "tony" <tony@tntpro.com>, <nathan@vidican.com> Cc: <questions@FreeBSD.ORG> Subject: Re: HotmailMigration Message-ID: <200104260416.f3Q4FvL37409@xyzzy.intranet.snsonline.net> In-Reply-To: <008901c0cda9$09d07f40$0a00a8c0@tntpro.com> References: <3AE6F95A.4D51D58D@wmptl.com> <008901c0cda9$09d07f40$0a00a8c0@tntpro.com>
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You also neglected to mention that they had to increase the number of machines from 3500ish to 5000+ just one other "minor" cost ;) On Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:59:00 -0400, tony said: :: Just wanted to congratulate you on a well said email, and ask, "did they :: actually answer you?" :: ----- Original Message ----- :: From: "Nathan Vidican" <webmaster@wmptl.com> :: To: <technet@microsoft.com> :: Cc: <questions@FreeBSD.ORG> :: Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 12:20 PM :: Subject: HotmailMigration :: :: :: > I've got a few questions which were not answered in your article. I :: > will tell you a little about my business, and what I am currently :: > working with. I cannot justify moving from my open-sourced system to :: > Windows 2000, and am curious as to why you would choose HotMail as a :: > prime example? I do not know of too many companies which could afford :: > (primarily speaking about financially) the migration of 5000+ servers :: > from an open-source (cost-free licensed) to Windows 2000. I cannot even :: > begin to fathom what such a cost would be, based upon my experiences :: > with Microsoft and it's software licensing charges. I am attempting not :: > too be biased with this email, as I am dead serious, and would truly :: > appreciate an honest reply. :: > I am currently involved in the startup phase of a new devision to an :: > existing company. My network is a relatively small network with a :: > cluster of about 30 servers (and growing), running web, database, and :: > email services. On all of the intel-based machines I am running the :: > FreeBSD (various releases from 2.2.8-RELEASE -> 4.3-STABLE) operating :: > system, on Sun Sparc based machines I am running either Solaris 2.8, or :: > OpenBSD 2.8 and on all of the Apple Macintosh systems I am running :: > OpenBSD 2.8 (used primarily for SSL servers). All servers are on a :: > 100mbit switched LAN, (using Cisco Catalyst switches), with Gigabit :: > (over fiber) connections between several of the key servers (eg: primary :: > user database and mail servers) in the progress of implementation. We :: > offer web-hosting, server co-location, and custom web/database design. I :: > use Oracle, MySQL, and PostGre SQL as well as a custom design which :: > leverages the UFS filesystem's capabilities for the databases. In :: > general, I am happy with the design, and really satisfied with the :: > performance. :: > I cam accross your article reading a thread posted to :: > questions@freebsd.org; and from there I understand that your move from :: > FreeBSD to Windows 2000 was primarily motivated by political reasons. I :: > can see how it would be a huge embarassment to be running one of the :: > most successful sites on the internet from a platform which you cannot :: > market and/or sell yourselves. Still, from an unbiased perspective, I'd :: > ask you to answer a few questions regarding this migration. :: > First and foremost, I can see how this migration wouldn't have incurred :: > the licensing charges as it is a part of Microsoft; but how much would :: > the total cost for the licensing on all of the HotMail webservers cost :: > the average business (which is not owned nor operated by Microsoft)? :: > Judging by what it would have cost me to run Win2000 Server for a measly :: > 25 users on our local office LAN I can't even contemplate the licensing :: > cost for 5000+ servers serving millions of users. I do understand that :: > one may be able to get away without purchasing so many copies of the :: > O/S, but I cannot see how you would legally allow an outside company to :: > run that many servers without individually licensing them. To be honest, :: > I do not know much about Microsoft's licensing policies... perhaps you :: > do offer some sort of bulk, flat-rate, or site-wide licensing fee :: > schedule for large server farms of this nature, do you? If so, what :: > would the MSRP be for say 5000 servers each serving 2000 users a piece? :: > Secondly, what about the upgrade path? What kind of options would you :: > be able to offer someone with a 5000 unit server farm when you're next :: > 'Service Pack' comes out? Would that company then have to 'upgrade' all :: > machines to the new service pack in order to avoid some threatening :: > back-door entrance to the system that you 'weren't aware of'? What about :: > say the next generation of the O/S? Would the company then have to :: > re-purchase licensing for each server to be upgraded? What would this :: > cost? I mean just the software cost; not including the IT staffing :: > requirements to actually procure such a transition. :: > Thirdly, to what level of customization could you possibly offer to :: > such a company? With FreeBSD, (or any other Open-Sourced system), the :: > company would have the extreme flexability in that they could simply :: > change or alter components of the O/S which they simply do not require. :: > For example, the GUI; similar to Novell Netware 5, wherein the GUI :: > doesn't have to be using system resources because it doesn't always have :: > to be loaded... or ever loaded to begin with for that matter. What if :: > the company were involved in some obtuse practise, (say VOIP), wherein :: > they were required to service thousands or even millions of clients over :: > a protocol which your O/S doesn't directly support? Would they then have :: > to fork-out more money for OS 'add-ons', and/or 'upgrades'? Would they :: > then incur more licensing fees? Would they be forced to go to a third :: > party to provide them with a solution that would work on your platform? :: > Would you then refuse to support it because it was designed a third :: > party; worse yet, would you blame problems their encountering on :: > imcompatabilities or state that you 'do not support that'? :: > Which brings us to another issue, support. What would you charge for a :: > support contract to be able to fully provide technical support for a :: > company of this magnitude? I know of several firms which support FreeBSD :: > for such massive endeavors, but I would assume that something this large :: > would have to be supported by Microsoft directly. Primarily so because :: > no-one else (should) have more knowledge of the O/S and/or how it :: > functions; and therefor be knowledgable enough to support it. What would :: > a typical technical support contract for a company with 5000 servers :: > running Windows 2000 cost? :: > Lastly, what about performance. You stated in your article that FreeBSD :: > does not perform well in a given scenario. From what I understand, that :: > given scenario really doesn't apply to Apache. Therefor you compared the :: > performance of two completely different things, of course stating that :: > yours was better. My question is, that if yours is so much better then :: > why are some of the largest sites on the internet still using FreeBSD :: > and Apache? These are the few companies which this migration could :: > potentially apply to, for example Yahoo. Companies which do service as :: > many if not more clients than HotMail, yet I don't see them even :: > attempting to justify such a migration. Why do you suppose they aren't? :: > Have you approached companies like Yahoo? What was the typical response :: > given to you by them? :: > To sum up things a bit, I would like to know what it would have cost an :: > outside company to make such a transition from and open-sourced system :: > to Windows 2000. This would of course not include their IT staffing, :: > programatic changes, and downtime incurred to do so. I would like to :: > know why, (other than for the obvious political reasons), you chose to :: > make such a migration public news. I would like to better understand how :: > you could possible intend to market such a large migration for any other :: > company outside of the Microsoft Corporation. If you could reasonably :: > answer any of the above, in a manner as unbiased as possible I would :: > truly like to hear from you. Please note that I have also carbon copied :: > this message to the FreeBSD support list, in an effort to understand the :: > FreeBSD community's viewpoint on this as well. I would encourage you to :: > also carbon copy your response to this list, as I am sure I am not the :: > only one with questions of this nature. :: > :: > Nathan Vidican :: > Nathan@Vidican.com :: > http://Nathan.Vidican.com/ :: > :: > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org :: > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message :: > :: :: :: To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org :: with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message :: :: :: -- Mark Sergeant Unix Systems Administrator Fortune follows... Any dramatic series the producers want us to take seriously as a representation of contemporary reality cannot be taken seriously as a representation of anything -- except a show to be ignored by anyone capable of sitting upright in a chair and chewing gum simultaneously. -- Richard Schickel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message
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