From nobody Wed Jun 4 18:58:13 2025 X-Original-To: current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bCH0g49hgz5xTN8 for ; Wed, 04 Jun 2025 18:58:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-pg1-x531.google.com (mail-pg1-x531.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::531]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bCH0f31fMz3WGy for ; Wed, 04 Jun 2025 18:58:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-pg1-x531.google.com with SMTP id 41be03b00d2f7-b2c3c689d20so111637a12.3 for ; Wed, 04 Jun 2025 11:58:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1749063505; x=1749668305; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=7Gl1GSz7GymmpMePpJamjOuZDg4gRZKsKOmKLoqEcbc=; b=SY/pzuV4nbqw8qSlQXNYft2MOQsOSwTYoyBqUOm7w5WFFeIzPSuqoDH138AoGjMRog DU0ItybxbyMFUMBpEzAUC2Xky9fYg0iYnXhOWzAXrLdah5EXtKuM3H3thvWBCN7EC2g9 hsJmNZi1+FQn6MpLiJRvm2dqCug0u3teuOqb4HcIRgzo0gywQLsfW30XUsgTRYHvA07J Wnjxu00x20DcuobVgtr+tcZtjDN8vClRSSCV3fiEjhYs0pqMHRlHaZi6I+S4KwskbHNT nv0bVh0Cfxb0fG45wyxA1U6Lje1DtSncJaN6C3HXRFNG3NhodpA7qQLsTBIQaRuQPUk1 wpJQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1749063505; x=1749668305; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=7Gl1GSz7GymmpMePpJamjOuZDg4gRZKsKOmKLoqEcbc=; b=WYOch2QeHHLrVuq+l2V/jp/1btHIFIoy+KzVfHQLD7d0Jp2SRZdTwWkK+zrNP1/+Q0 L46vQeMi2QV2163lojEBgzEC5izROO5sTSlQx1F1tgBQtKTMkDN8SDzsuJfS/rXnJPFg xSid0KFjjE47RPptV2PdNFruNgKZIt7Vw8KEAt2OllCvIDVnkE0K8BglIGpz9HMKGw0u 3UVQpe9k8DgpMdShSUw8Q1WKfBESo82e+iUPD7vCixHuLI9RM7H6XWsRf2CxQ5x8ZEve Pyxe0pt7MsC/ISihFKy3e6UB/b3foXFZ7bp1ny9mqC1CnpmcAsl3GK0yrNuFnyECNScd MwOA== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCVC5dkCJ0rgTbP3V5E7UTUg60vIPDLsd5Wrk88QE71zQ1wUJEZFmpOgBVT2ZvxP2fl75rIAqIyF@freebsd.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Ywc9ls2OsbeE6TWPtA/HzKOU/+S0LYxY236kbcM8CuhVbOyfvp3 yuMeluqn7c2Uiv46bpFGfmnAAMwu4RPHi50+cqNYaxi+h1h9HBHTrqoMhISRsKZUHiZPA1fIfjo bmU/roOB6AP4pepeUqqNSod2ZWeEJKju7QSWKH0Ke9A== X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncsXHq/VrYckicpeqBgkCbuxD0ChBtWwgL0uxhcmV/BA1S+sOjQNAtzQfprWREO K8X+KCkfdygzxwRCTFTB9E83xcqHmbmBaGIESJSjKaf18Rqq5nLHcTSDRqZxUE/BdbYHaAAG7DN 0D8EJ3QhqGWUiNVLwrHYbebofV3gS7ARb0Y8t1NQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFAD0sSrCRIUAhGhgLs8Zu+6mpPhvks48/cZUqJl/dxIBDFa/UwtvxfyQM+LjYufQU2u4ZI9v4GwRYDB1aHJmc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a21:3a82:b0:21a:de8e:44b4 with SMTP id adf61e73a8af0-21d22c29d80mr5233987637.16.1749063504676; Wed, 04 Jun 2025 11:58:24 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <114q5890-nrs9-55r5-44n9-86506985490s@SerrOFQ.bet> In-Reply-To: <114q5890-nrs9-55r5-44n9-86506985490s@SerrOFQ.bet> From: Warner Losh Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 11:58:13 -0700 X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFuR7nuUmTULYBZ52neOaoeY51vaE_xcu2drvOFSfPc0h51xa1Y4eIfG4gc Message-ID: Subject: Re: HEADS UP: wireless KPI and KBI and FreeBSD 15 To: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" Cc: FreeBSD wireless mailing list , FreeBSD Current , FreeBSD Stable ML , desktop@freebsd.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e2da3a0636c39416" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bCH0f31fMz3WGy X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] --000000000000e2da3a0636c39416 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jun 4, 2025, 10:52=E2=80=AFAM Bjoern A. Zeeb wrote= : > Hello, > > Cc: wireless, current, stable, desktop > > FreeBSD WiFi development has regained traction. We are facing a > decision with FreeBSD 15 coming before the end of this year [1]. > > In order to continue WiFi development, upcoming changes will inevitably > break the net80211-driver and net80211-userland interfaces. > By FreeBSD's standards those would not be mergeable to stable branches, > such as stable/15 then. > > This would imply development happening in FreeBSD 16-CURRENT (main at > that point) would stay there. The first release to ship anything major > beyond now would be FreeBSD 16.0 in December 2027 [1]. > > After some discussion we think this is not a feasible solution and we > will declare the KPI and KBI for wireless as unstable in FreeBSD 15. > > This allows us to merge changes from main into stable/15 for inclusion > in future point releases (e.g., 15.1, 15.2, etc.) as the code matures. > However, this also means that during the lifetime of FreeBSD 15, we may > introduce breaking changes affecting out-of-tree and in-tree drivers, > userland-kernel interfaces, and chipsets. We will address these > disruptions as they arise. > > Before finalizing this decision, we invite feedback from the community. > If you have concerns or objections, please speak up now. > I strongly support this. Ideally, we'd have good compat on 15.0 vs 15.4, but wireless is in such a state that I think the project is better served with the hassle of instability and better features faster than stability and stagnation with our currently incomplete feature set. Please work with the maintsiners of the point release pkg repo maintainers to help smoothe the experience for those ports that use the unstable ABIs. Warner Bjoern (on behalf of the Wireless Development Team) > Tom > Adrian > Ed > Joe > > [1] https://www.freebsd.org/releng/ > > -- > Bjoern A. Zeeb r15:7 > > --000000000000e2da3a0636c39416 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Jun 4, 2025, 10:52=E2=80= =AFAM Bjoern A. Zeeb <bz@freebsd.org> wrote:
Hello,

Cc: wireless, current, stable, desktop

FreeBSD WiFi development has regained traction.=C2=A0 We are facing a
decision with FreeBSD 15 coming before the end of this year [1].

In order to continue WiFi development, upcoming changes will inevitably
break the net80211-driver and net80211-userland interfaces.
By FreeBSD's standards those would not be mergeable to stable branches,=
such as stable/15 then.

This would imply development happening in FreeBSD 16-CURRENT (main at
that point) would stay there.=C2=A0 The first release to ship anything majo= r
beyond now would be FreeBSD 16.0 in December 2027 [1].

After some discussion we think this is not a feasible solution and we
will declare the KPI and KBI for wireless as unstable in FreeBSD 15.

This allows us to merge changes from main into stable/15 for inclusion
in future point releases (e.g., 15.1, 15.2, etc.) as the code matures.
However, this also means that during the lifetime of FreeBSD 15, we may
introduce breaking changes affecting out-of-tree and in-tree drivers,
userland-kernel interfaces, and chipsets.=C2=A0 We will address these
disruptions as they arise.

Before finalizing this decision, we invite feedback from the community.
If you have concerns or objections, please speak up now.


Please work with the maintsiners of the point release pkg rep= o maintainers to help smoothe the experience for those ports that use the u= nstable ABIs.

Warner

Bjoern (on behalf of the Wireless Development Team)
Tom
Adrian
Ed
Joe

[1] https://www.freebsd.org/releng/

--
Bjoern A. Zeeb=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0r15:7

--000000000000e2da3a0636c39416--