From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 7 10:30:05 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 472B6106564A; Thu, 7 Aug 2008 10:30:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) Received: from smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (gate6.infracaninophile.co.uk [IPv6:2001:8b0:151:1::1]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 969A98FC22; Thu, 7 Aug 2008 10:30:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) Received: from happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m77ATtCS004862; Thu, 7 Aug 2008 11:29:57 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.7.0 smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk m77ATtCS004862 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=infracaninophile.co.uk; s=200708; t=1218104998; bh=m5DhtiWQj0h2yM xQL/vnHGS9xHUGb755gwTtaziuWbQ=; h=Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version: To:CC:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Cc:Content-Type: Date:From:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Mime-Version:References:To; z=Mes sage-ID:=20<489ACE9D.4000606@infracaninophile.co.uk>|Date:=20Thu,=2 007=20Aug=202008=2011:29:49=20+0100|From:=20Matthew=20Seaman=20|Organization:=20Infracaninophile|User -Agent:=20Thunderbird=202.0.0.16=20(X11/20080726)|MIME-Version:=201 .0|To:=20Jeremy=20Chadwick=20|CC:=20wbentley@fu turecis.com,=20hackers@freebsd.org|Subject:=20Re:=20Idea=20for=20Fr eeBSD|References:=20=20<20080807074332.GA17830@eos.sc1.parodius.com>|I n-Reply-To:=20<20080807074332.GA17830@eos.sc1.parodius.com>|X-Enigm ail-Version:=200.95.6|Content-Type:=20multipart/signed=3B=20micalg= 3Dpgp-sha256=3B=0D=0A=20protocol=3D"application/pgp-signature"=3B=0 D=0A=20boundary=3D"------------enig19E667A98419EB952FCF3162"; b=Ie4 vk/qMy6A34lyr/sYAdSnvevSWBQirWwPI27OxMSQCrt+AjdiQM33mCFQq2DGhuGvVto OhC/QkKwdGBpX7NKMzgaNJv4AmoArSBaLbIVVqsKmq5/SWH19hmb2/d1VusBCqPLyHT 5cSgwoNO2xonU6Jd0n903PLdzc+gWzOdow= Message-ID: <489ACE9D.4000606@infracaninophile.co.uk> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 11:29:49 +0100 From: Matthew Seaman Organization: Infracaninophile User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (X11/20080726) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeremy Chadwick References: <20080807074332.GA17830@eos.sc1.parodius.com> In-Reply-To: <20080807074332.GA17830@eos.sc1.parodius.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig19E667A98419EB952FCF3162" X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.93.3/7968/Thu Aug 7 09:32:30 2008 on happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VERIFIED,NO_RELAYS autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, wbentley@futurecis.com Subject: Re: Idea for FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 10:30:05 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig19E667A98419EB952FCF3162 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jeremy Chadwick wrote: > On Wed, Aug 06, 2008 at 07:14:51PM -0400, wbentley@futurecis.com wrote:= >> To who it may concern, >> >> I am A FreeBSD administrator as well as a Solaris Administrator. I = use >> BSD at home but Solaris at work. I love both OS's but I would like to >> increase the administrative capability of FreeBSD. >> >> In Solaris 10 the Services Management Facility (SMF) was introduced= =2E >> Basically what it does, is take all the rc.d scripts and puts them int= o >> a database to manage. Everything is converted to XML and two basic >> commands (svcs and svcadm) are used to manage everything. >=20 > I highly recommend you and anyone advocating the use of XML for such > things read the following whitepaper/study, in full: >=20 > http://www.cs.kent.ac.uk/pubs/2004/2102/content.pdf >=20 Heh. Loved all the little asides to Nancy... Amazing it hasn't been fixed in 4 years. Anyhow, yes: ASN.1 is smaller, and hence faster than XML for networked=20 applications. Which is fine, but as far as I can see doesn't address the= =20 question at hand. =20 There are two connected questions here: * What technology should be used to implement the FreeBSD rc.subr system? * What functionality could or should be added to the FreeBSD rc.subr=20 system? Where the answer to the first question clearly constrains the results of the second. So what are the requirements for the rc system? Off the top of my head -- and I've probably missed some vital considerations here -- in order of priority: 1 reliability. The system has to boot up. 2 repeatability. The system has to boot up in a consistent state 3 fault tolerance. The system cannot fail to boot up unless the problems really are terminal. 4 configurability. The system has to boot up correctly for all conceivable combinations of hardware and software. 5 portability. Should run on anything from the smallest of embedded devices to the most enormous high power super computers to the most transient of virtualized hosts. 6 manageability. Must be comprehensible by ordinary mortals. 7 efficiency. Must bring the system up as fast as is practicable and without excessive use of system resources What does XML-based technology bring to this? As the OP states the prima= ry=20 benefit is in manageability. I would contend that the advantage claimed here is rather less significant than indicated. We already have a centra= l database of configuration information -- /etc/rc.conf -- and while we don= 't have one single application to control starting and stopping services we = have the next best thing: a consistent user interface for calling the=20 individual rc-scripts. Indeed, as other posters have shown elsewhere in = this thread, adding that sort of functionality is only a Small Matter of = Programming using the existing tools. What's wrong wwith using XML? XML adds significantly to the complexity o= f=20 an rc system -- it's suddenly necessary to have another shlib or two and = several compiled applications available early in the boot process. XML=20 itself is too general-purpose: it has too much baggage designed for its = primary function of facilitating interoperation between diverse systems i= n=20 different zones of control, none of which is particularly applicable to=20 system startup. =20 I can see the attraction of writing a nice pointy-clicky database-backed = GUI management interface to encourage the uninitiated administrator, but = that can only be an adjunct to the current setup, not a replacement. If = you can't fix a broken system via a text only serial console accessed=20 across whatever sort of low-bandwidth emergency connectivity you could=20 imagine, then I suspect quite strongly it's not going to receive=20 wholehearted community approval. Cheers, Matthew --=20 Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 7 Priory Courtyard Flat 3 PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Ramsgate Kent, CT11 9PW --------------enig19E667A98419EB952FCF3162 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEAREIAAYFAkiazqMACgkQ8Mjk52CukIzrhgCeNiZUcXPmiXr5yrjJDGF3wQgw 1DcAnRW/wIGfZNIYgTNnePoVV743pU0P =Y15w -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig19E667A98419EB952FCF3162--