From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Oct 11 11:17:26 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D546E1065688 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 2008 11:17:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jdc@koitsu.dyndns.org) Received: from QMTA06.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net (qmta06.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [76.96.62.56]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F78B8FC0C for ; Sat, 11 Oct 2008 11:17:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jdc@koitsu.dyndns.org) Received: from OMTA05.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.43]) by QMTA06.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id RNv21a00A0vyq2s56PHKfK; Sat, 11 Oct 2008 11:17:19 +0000 Received: from koitsu.dyndns.org ([69.181.141.110]) by OMTA05.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id RPHQ1a0032P6wsM3RPHQb2; Sat, 11 Oct 2008 11:17:25 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=QycZ5dHgAAAA:8 a=hM_6Ibkl6hzLfcKDwJ8A:9 a=YL9srWlqZKyfB5oL144A:7 a=whqdCaO2SFb9N15ThvdwcdAfhoMA:4 a=EoioJ0NPDVgA:10 a=LY0hPdMaydYA:10 Received: by icarus.home.lan (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 375ECC941C; Sat, 11 Oct 2008 04:17:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 04:17:24 -0700 From: Jeremy Chadwick To: Wojciech Puchar Message-ID: <20081011111724.GA58920@icarus.home.lan> References: <48EFE00B.32391.87A6C@conrads.cox.net> <20081011100949.GB57170@icarus.home.lan> <20081011124314.I44168@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20081011124314.I44168@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Cc: "Conrad J. Sabatier" , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Need help installing on SATA X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 11:17:26 -0000 On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 12:44:03PM +0200, Wojciech Puchar wrote: >> they're committing a sin by using another operating system. Open source >> is about freedom of choice -- if FreeBSD doesn't work for you or get the >> job done, and Linux does, then use Linux! If Windows works for you, use >> Windows! There's absolutely no shame in that. Blind, one-sided > > except when it's not advocacy but superiority, for example i would rather > seek other hardware than run linux. What the OP described is definitely advocacy; "I've been using FreeBSD for 12 years and ". The sooner users and system administrators stop toting this " rocks! It's better than yours! It's better than !" attitude the more mature and serious said operating system will appear to the world, and to commercial vendors. Speaking solely with regards to Linux: it has the upper hand in many regards. As someone who used Linux from 1992 until 1997, and switched to BSD, I have experience in both worlds. Linux today has: - More kernel developers that know the innards well. FreeBSD has no where near the quantity of said kernel folks, which means our guys are over-worked and stressed most of the time, and if a key person goes on hiatus, there's no guarantee issues will get dealt with while they are gone (see below), - Multiple (read: more than one) kernel developers who are dedicated to parts of the kernel. FreeBSD has many very key/important pieces which are maintained by *one individual ONLY*. If that individual is busy with their job, real life, out sick, or even death (yes, this has happened!), it means that a key part of the kernel ends up being neglected for an indefinite amount of time (usually years), - Full support from hardware manufacturers/vendors. Linux developers are able to get development/test-bed cards (and usually documentation) for developing a new driver, sometimes for hardware/chips that aren't even on the market yet. FreeBSD *very* rarely, if ever, gets this. We resort to looking at NetBSD or OpenBSD code (and they are in the same boat we are), hoping they have support for said hardware. If not, we resort to looking at Linux code (which is immensely different from ours). Vendors often ignore us. I can expand on why I believe this is, but I have no example cases to back my opinions up, - Turn-around time on fixes or bugs is significantly faster than ours, especially in kernel-land. This is a direct result of having more regularly-operating eyes, - Larger user base. This means more bug reports, which I consider a good thing -- it means more things are getting fixed, - More "user-friendly" interface pieces. There are many aspects of FreeBSD which require knowledge of C, or require that someone write a C wrapper to get certain pieces of data from the kernel. Linux has numerous methods which allow someone using Python or Ruby or Perl to access said data. FreeBSD can accomplish this, there's nothing stopping us except time/effort, so it's not really a "negative" against FreeBSD; but people *are* picking Linux because of this, - A significantly different attitude when it comes to support. Back when I used Linux, the attitude was *horrible* (which is why I moved to BSD), but it has improved greatly in the past 10 years. I can expand on this if need be, but you'll just have to trust me for now. One of the attitudes we have which is very unrealistic is "you have the source, you can fix it yourself" -- I'd say 80% of our community does not have the ability (or time) to do this. It is rude and unprofessional of us to expect this of our users. This is reality, I'm sorry to say; no form of advocacy, T-shirt-wearing, or blogging "FreeBSD rocks!" will change it. In my opinion, it's better to embrace the above facts (because nothing is perfect, Linux included!), and try to improve on them. People will use whatever gets the job done for them. If it doesn't, users *will* switch to another operating system, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Why? Because reality states: solving problems is more important than advocacy or "superiority". -- | Jeremy Chadwick jdc at parodius.com | | Parodius Networking http://www.parodius.com/ | | UNIX Systems Administrator Mountain View, CA, USA | | Making life hard for others since 1977. PGP: 4BD6C0CB |