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Date:      Thu, 12 Oct 2000 18:07:32 +0000 (GMT)
From:      Rick Hamell <hamellr@heorot.1nova.com>
To:        David Johnson <djohnson@acuson.com>
Cc:        freebs-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org
Subject:   Re: -newbies
Message-ID:  <Pine.BSF.4.21.0010121748330.23543-100000@heorot.1nova.com>
In-Reply-To: <39E7A882.6F1D21D4@acuson.com>

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> >         My major problem is that the questions that are being asked in
> > newbies, are not newbie questions! Asking about setting up a pccard, or
> > NATD, or DNS, or firewall filters are not in my mind newbie-type
> > questions.
> 
> What exactly are appropriate questions? There will always be someone on
> any list who won't follow the rules, but what about the rest of us?

	From the -Newbies First Aid Kit, our "FAQ" so to speak:

	FreeBSD-Questions@FreeBSD.ORG is the place to send all questions
about installing, configuring, running and using FreeBSD. All help
requests are handled by FreeBSD-Questions, including newbies questions.

	FreeBSD-Newbies is different. We don't ask for help or answer
how-to question. It is a discussion forum for newbies.

	That is the rules of FreeBSD-newbies... pretty simple. Those are
the rules it was allowed to come into creation under. Those rules are NOT
being followed today, nor have they been followed for quite some time.

> The intricacies of NAT or DNS certainly don't belong here. But what
> about installation issues (if you can't get it installed, odds are
> you're a newbie)? What programs to use (tcsh or bash)? Etc. If some
> questions are allowed but others are not, then there should be some sort
> of guidelines as to what is okay.

	Simple... NO technical questions are allowed at all. What programs
to use would be IMHO, on-topic and appropriate.

> I'm not trying to be belligerant. I fully understand your points. But I
> think -newbies should be more than just "I did something cool with
> FreeBSD last night." We are mere beginners with FreeBSD. That's why
> we're called newbies. At least give us a chance to learn to walk before
> demanding we run with the big boys.

	Yes, we were all beginners. FreeBSD-questions has been very
tolerant over the years to newbies. No matter how basic your question is,
if it's worded politely, and you seem to have done basic research, it gets
answered. In fact, from what I see... some of the more advanced questions
are more likely to not be answered! See the four postings regarding PCMCIA
Cards installations/configuration.

> > But when was the last time such a question came across? In the
> > last year, I believe I've only seen one, maybe two posts that I think are
> > ontopic for -newbies.
> 
> Huh? Are you serious! I recall discussions on the merits and
> disadvantages of various window managers, tales of triumph and woe,
> talks on the documentation situation as it applies to newbies, and of
> course the recent magazine discussion. All of these were appropriate
> because they were discussed by *newbies* from a *newbie* perspective.
> Geez, if we can't even talk about where to find documentation written
> for newbies, then go ahead and nuke the list because it's pretty
> useless...

	Ok, I will freely admit there that I mis-spoke there, though some
of those topics were cross-posted off into -chat or -questions, right
where they were both on topic. 
	I'm trying to bring this to people's attention because a large
amount of questions are getting asked in Newbies, and from I can see never
get answered. I do not believe that is giving a FreeBSD a very good
reputation. We talk about needing to expand, but by having people not
realize what -newbies really is for, they're missing a lot more that they
have the right to get, if they posted to the correct place.
	I personally would be willing to see -newbies changed to something
like -newbie_issues.. (not -newbie-chat... -chat already serves that
purpose, as most -newbie chat issues again, IMHO are not limited to the
newbie.) If I had the time I would volunteer to take over from Sue Blake
the position of defacto Moderator of -newbies. She did a wonderful job in
the begining, but I can not remeber the last non-Newbies First Aid Kit
post she's made. Either she also is to busy, no longer feels -newbies is
needed by herself or in general, or...? Please Sue if you do read this, I
respect you and the pain you went through to get this group created, I
simply believe your orginal vision needs a swift kick to get it back where
it belongs.
	Ultimatily, I guess it belongs in postmaster@freebsd.org's hands
to make this choice. Does -newbies get a name change, stay the way it is,
or get kicked out the door?

						Rick

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