From nobody Tue Dec 9 19:06:12 2025 X-Original-To: python@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4dQpGt6lT3z6Jdh9; Tue, 09 Dec 2025 19:06:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mandree@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R13" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4dQpGt68DNz3hM2; Tue, 09 Dec 2025 19:06:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mandree@FreeBSD.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1765307174; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:autocrypt:autocrypt; bh=DBxC/69L5BxN1yj/47DEEdd6/Cusmrbw483Y0FthwPs=; b=oBmOI+WJHug2EF2KEqtw1ZUyyqlrH+Ubkq1S3mhOSPu/RF7J2a0kPnqMYWCWXvSxxJGi29 TmRAZVJyeTRjIsWnkoWxXYckjJlWjHL2zEYyZsEfQ+7PcRMt4JZI+Gu/pgVACnHP/ojm5j Wgnp4JdaZhhPPPBfnG/nGC3qH2Dn3UAAQP3k8b36ml1lS1iWfNLwBzXDpvImiY0nLByxi0 wAgoEGbq7xVPiwevoEXPRF/APkZdXKWSv+tGmYMN8NYg4VtsB6jbUsymgr0rsBT51fF4c8 wC5iDwLbXFulv9IyqqP/EDqJY9JPSjfVXYxYfg3Alj9jJrORXz4wetqu5oAa9g== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1765307174; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:autocrypt:autocrypt; bh=DBxC/69L5BxN1yj/47DEEdd6/Cusmrbw483Y0FthwPs=; b=lTGlbHOfmNTpq4Hy/sHBalF2WLmlBHN56DfELN1xImxRFk5AkxwTQUlCfr5ieIsIRYcgDY ft8Cwr9JGW3vIRhbrR+8LlFlehrzJrZfVsRYPR5U4WxVsl34dSa1p2yneYU6AGJh2XYwMP WALLYgwkXy/kttQiqxje6K8p9jLmTNvi+2l+q/8GKAwHNsI2rl2pNufbaPN2rUGL0WE1gc M63Clp9/jgIwc3OGY2o0L+liV4Z5hHuEFw34mUGfvfF+2sDPTHK2bnQooehLD9fsOHgvGG SKKVnaSil6AQlgQEvB3LSqApQGW1+oOR694N5qVHrjwmDrhl7gxL7+6vNSqzDw== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1765307174; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=owQLkt5AfuZzCfPihDP3j8AycRfVbXD+dKDtGtpnDnFsUY704ZRofan2EIUncWV3iZJu7d eq3lQKnOpxofWR8Awm/YyEIYIYbCCF9tbgmzYZAV78OM1ET9oTDEVCm/benEDmNJLF15JF NH7nvj+90PiM2R1JEqc0lroP1tBfHAZqXK/pmoJ4PdCzcd12YOrUuA9TnRrFpGceU5oBsV on2rDsNKFb46xI2XYDDJcOZxEbJ/UMJF2qa6/UoVCcJ2n5YDsjPhwt8sL9I5LIZiqu0VXy /Wnnkseq1WfSq6EBpfitRkOUAdmEd8icAXGZk6LMkXYLvYJ8H/n3kQa2ZqpQAQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from geo33.an3e.de (p200300d027014900329c23fffe3f7574.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [IPv6:2003:d0:2701:4900:329c:23ff:fe3f:7574]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: mandree/mail) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4dQpGt4dkHzmJf; Tue, 09 Dec 2025 19:06:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mandree@FreeBSD.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ryzen.an3e.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07BD83C84092; Tue, 09 Dec 2025 20:06:13 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <04980a0c-453d-4a1e-a314-144e82f5b65c@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2025 20:06:12 +0100 List-Id: FreeBSD-specific Python issues List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-python List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-BeenThere: freebsd-python@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-python@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: Time to update default Python version? To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: From: Matthias Andree Content-Language: en-US, fr-FR, en-GB, de-DE, nl-NL, nl-BE, fr-CH, fr-BE, de-AT Cc: core , portmgr , python Autocrypt: addr=mandree@FreeBSD.org; keydata= xsFNBFXwq5cBEADQxc9JeK4yqt1BX5tOMfzyIfEyBWXix0xqeAA/HQ2wd31NFcGFEbAevDsG oO7UcYQji1Gj/TggmclV37SHPDE++bU7O6Wur57FfTsVCmS6XjHj/n2qXgxrWtU7Fv9YOBz/ wNge3sGAh2xbwh5dTt+Ew6TbuMbwXNonb4WUCo6yFMrDd2vg9RqcVSDpdLFO0JI9hNGLQDtH P2TbBfGj8V5qz9NFiGzRxmmFhMzqOSDCEs9uanr3TCLq7yZFTyAmXDCZuyFhxGwHDo6jB+9L bIprA/oH0uFol899hiIrZRm7kIAYsOSvp84x0XBFvSMoDY4ZA4Ucv3xk+aDqob0V5F4+W3Vg 7bdlpbAuwov944Zawbm/sBGctNbfNeWjc+L7F43PbghzCfk6aLH0LwH3lNiu76F57lJqfTCn kBd0V0dUZ0/AJFskZu+aO/dCVkbfjotXDqsh55kBrSMsRX/rqt2d43q6o9AyWu5aMqLAG2ZN 19qLu/a1vzbMEfRaimlFSo9LMY1jf5TcUc7mNlPDhm8c6o+Ivx/D0tSQ4V+3SqbroYgHo1A4 Qyiau4sEP2YFtKbdRdpaN7WsdfdaZmrd9xa5lvp/gQZEdpLPzL0aBDEeUzaL/nee/EDQUbPu SYJCmDNyqxs/Y4j0ZGQmIPT1CY34AvdjIcLuT/BG1JZaIlKQ9QARAQABzSVNYXR0aGlhcyBB bmRyZWUgPG1hbmRyZWVARnJlZUJTRC5vcmc+wsGUBBMBCgA+AhsDBQsJCAcDBRUKCQgLBRYC AwEAAh4BAheAFiEE3EplW9mTzUhx+oIQ5BKxVu/zhVoFAmZEAJgFCRX2730ACgkQ5BKxVu/z hVp5Ig/8C3FGHJAwtw0hWybIa1U7OcHdkvmOURM00rho942sTYRrUbwAdLsnW2YGzvhuwfIO EQWYfRfEsjJzCkErx+wtgBbdp3yuKU4BuyokOP27j2NLJjDVW4yBocbNLT/cegHQd5beKEVf Zk7zxFG6BX20xcc1e6um41QTkWQrvCyrkp+8QBvwLY9wjfAYqjkBpCTNNcSxxmlxPwnD+9zH ykJ9klLNQsS7T60byQvKoTIWWo/2hTGwaD0S5kiNDOvgGu/6LIxoOxU45XNDUmYRAiz7rd+w acxKRccl+wYmdAE7UuoDYCNogR6N6d9knOMY5zcrXTi2GkQmbYbLU2aDQNXrW521a+gZmuWb TK++MTS/pX/suescj6klRYk9tqVNgd1ixNVdo9RZotynMqos0l4WHEQjETSn9bclXavhzPkx hcATlpFO3bglAR4eIYBgWx6bAs2kxRrDeAh1AU1XCOngeTfS6BPQB463bgJx8YsMkACYgCnG yMhuqVeb9HguK4lUcM43I3ISbE7Amka+xpS8QHRukH+ZmxBiopzheQml8CY0qoz/cxRIcQZd gSkQJ3b51UhXgsvNRLmj9yVkP+mvQ8ydWEVnUH6hHhehDq2ojt2cxNEbM9LcZcAUvEwSF0IR NldTfsZ9WBCeY1OJqHoD1EBNpltjKa+hSUDXFt2R5DzOwU0EVfCrlwEQANcm7Ryn0O8lXqbl m756GabmqMTOsgikq65vzFZ8bsZOUfZg1bQRkDG6gzw8mVqpAxSnbZCTupEv1mR+rtxLVujr s+LODABBydwYv//Aj4U2/yqoYGko3Cf0zN8GUS5autz6P2XgIUScApOq+PGy/hs5xKW2GuXn ADbukpqdSweBaC5zCTiUB3VDpZNuuXHEBIMG746YxisJ7NwgXFAZ2cybupJQLC3ITHoTQIpe BfkdLZAq1XX+k8tKwiSIEZvaH/5q/zMWvbNSEFXHGao/F3t+JZq4ZZVRgM0jn27ZfZrSI0sG JFBP5jf+niwQgFe/4PdoidRYdDT9WAMVoSVz85mPaW7/LfRR3vu0h9pNIE/otC2ZxvlPdXO0 ng6337RG/DlUiMCSKz4k7soBnqflMhb7u+QgL7Tiq44yaw7l/n/VejQ0WjMsEKufxk3nwZhH YSgHHrQ8yMMVTUyy8grtIOEPdt/gLYWdXYfZAKnQXhMf4aFVpuLsUbLnRVZyojjhAwj8gfin haq38Vzx15UYLxgLx/o5wrocFq32JB9IDwuWFfdG2dRuXgMGXDgL4Rx9lKPPjmvhjdqH2XTt n6WshfBR3KmoYDWG+F4yhok1sWU1G/FgdjRRh55hrz/a2GgEPyZEmylK6tpB1friYmkGFkCv 2O6UkqJyrJOBREpm6U1LABEBAAHCwXwEGAEKACYCGwwWIQTcSmVb2ZPNSHH6ghDkErFW7/OF WgUCZkQAtwUJFfbvoAAKCRDkErFW7/OFWsM+EACzYazhIR3zPhFU7pkPlOaSkgObA8HtklXN jc2D2DHM9dV5FVkx6BW0dqzMYP13ATYePrlp9McFB+1MxAe6WObDbRr3CqFmie4vbxnnJS8K 1SDy/yyovyA05cXIC9YZtdIlplD6PQFxtiN6j3gArDkfiJ89jwIMj4wou0y7P6Nu2CGdC1/a y4jjIqb5e8L37TOgsBrxYlZkYTzxZHT0E10AF2OtkXwN1rzVuJ0wV/8HnrrXA+ZdfjWbFZTo 1PGez8ODlbMhm36AeL8W+PeBnTttGC7ibHC9gIlIiCTI7GrAv2IwE5d+2MXdx10df34ahZky AxAzGhvm/KB1ADKNHUwRXCkon4l19LTlYpUOpqE4u6z0FisK6icZSHkuvMBitw9//mL1hmOK omzpMnhh31Jyihsv0a2MyzRQKmeMfXh5agVl0/QWgoJytgEcsAvvOrCedXssEzzdoZv+m9wE VYglslSWVR9TTP1X4ftL86S9gdZcIOLygbzJAttJI0MZ6+XbIhkPSonnfqCtSwwMC9mqTXFO elgFGe16RedBTORI3KB0JVSuoswtS1kS3vwFg2fwykd5YzDusMNe2UnUqSBa6ZrMvk4pd5tZ a9f2Xh3V3DkOuUlBVzGFNj0kdU28JwIBWqi/2tHz0OORk/9+IteGPWYxG0vXoIhRiKbehs+J zQ== Organization: FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit [Including core@ because there is a specific arrangement to invoke them on situations like this.] Am 09.12.25 um 19:00 schrieb Antoine Brodin: > On Tue, Dec 9, 2025 at 6:06 PM Charlie Li wrote: >> >> George Mitchell wrote: >>> Thanks! Still interested in hearing consensus (if any) on whether it's >>> time to upgrade the default version ... -- George >> 3.13 will most likely be the next DEFAULT_VERSIONS bump at this point, >> but there are a number of major consumers broken with it. These bumps >> are a lot more difficult than what meets the eye, and have been getting >> more difficult with the types of changes that every new major version >> brings. > > Hello, > > With my exp-run hat, this is not a good idea to jump from 3.11 to > 3.13, last time it took more than 1 year to complete the exp-run , > while going from 3.11 to 3.12 would require a few weeks / months Thanks for sharing that bad experience. We've been unable to manage Python 3.13 until I pushed 3.14 into the tree before 3.13 landed, and we've been unable to make 3.12 the default Python before it went from "bugfix support" life^W "security support only" (where limitation to source releases isn't disturbing for FreeBSD). If things turn out bad, we need to leave some consumers behind and move forward; in the interim, the backported fixes should be applied or we upgrade to a point release if AND ONLY IF it's really imminent. It does not make sense to waste brain or CPU cycles from the EOL 3.11 to the EOL 3.12, and it also does not make sense to waste brain or CPU cycles on getting a 100% collection if it's unfeasible. So my take is try to fix as much as possible for three weeks, putting the word out as a call for help (coordinate through the Wiki if needed) then move before 2026Q1 branches, marking everything BROKEN and DEPRECATED that doesn't work by then, and end of January everything that's still broken with 3.13 or 3.14 gets EXPIRATION_DATE=2026-03-31 so it doesn't appear in 2026Q2. I am aware some ports will NOT work with 3.14 made the default because we'd enter a bootstrapping circular dependency for now, but I hear python@ seem to be wanting to make 3.13 (N-1) the default. We can't let the museum of py-* ports hog the entire Python stuff in the the ports tree down. We've eaten enough shit for our Python situation already, it's tainting our reputation and we need to get our act together. If someone proposes otherwise, get the backport patches from the upstream repo in within the week for 3.12 and 3.11 and possibly either forbid 3.10 or fix it too. We might want to change policies though and push for Python 3.15 more aggressively and make that the default in December 2026 with the bimonthly regular 3.15.X release (likely 3.15.1 unless they need to expedite security fixes as this year with 3.14.2). -- Matthias Andree FreeBSD ports committer