From nobody Mon Aug 25 10:48:26 2025 X-Original-To: current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4c9SFm5k0Nz65Zy2 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2025 10:48:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-pf1-x42c.google.com (mail-pf1-x42c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4c9SFm2jw8z45Qn for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2025 10:48:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-pf1-x42c.google.com with SMTP id d2e1a72fcca58-7704799d798so998847b3a.3 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2025 03:48:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1756118918; x=1756723718; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=jEziDS9/04StT2c/zujj4nhSMiCtbd9KSuWtdJJti08=; b=EhB08JrBnLCj7TwH5BXeM3kxgJ0yopSO1f4Mfz/SPc38sAfS5gMFkIyrqEoJFphupn PjyQ6YIQcYk+TD9vdfF1OeVs2iDaRW+q6E3ayZK/B3SOhU81fHXhgyEOINivup79qDu2 8Dr7ry1Z+G9aF8JJ4xcqZZ1rWK5fQ3kJOPIZnF0J7A92fV7opAL/Ol1vI64UqWVFCfhH 0EQBS2jP51h+BQ9eh6HlScYxtkptRAmP98zjbxf6grd0IHrx2IOoyMIoRydJevSoerQ2 j6yOHcjs42Bac+CefDMSV8a8Vt3QxCuXzEogbgaC3Cj12gr3oqrHkViy3DUgbnqZHBWy U7SA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1756118918; x=1756723718; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=jEziDS9/04StT2c/zujj4nhSMiCtbd9KSuWtdJJti08=; b=usKuW6L8JQZP1oQHYXBm7rVwSbCRAHpkyADh0NUVZ2kWxa2JrFZSRdpOazqaQXLwA/ blYaRBnmKcMkbKXr5Jo80r94+OkkV8JpAiY1Y76SQwAeNyFYRFeyuA8ABQWcgMMuauVK qnkaMsFTqhWX+zjqcGhM1IkiHMZ3QeUWf6YY2/dFeruzfp76tKMYm37sBdt0vGMeFU9a V3W8StPUm3BGvRCNu0ANm5ytZkqEuLFWy7bwqWHyECh0n7QrFq9NgrcKEFrR4Wofe5Te Itlq2lnaUFLYQPkQafbSgAvcS7JXsJQXeiGv6KzhdkAIEQwZP3dZF5WV/LCZ697CDvDX 5sfQ== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCXPGvZheQsFw0JhPwokjrsLE7XXS5Dyvihx43R/tm2y6FCXqgYlq0GtoyufcLV1gmSWTjcZWPRP@freebsd.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyICqMyT1kBealPeuPS/CLmGPv43K6bM7EIWyAumrZVggyDeo35 1T5Af+/O49I6TBd8OkM2QgyWuISuapMKzr/DUazSFSfxVNlC//xtAVW9OAqbuyjszkv29YO7tzX TchBNaDK/yaeQkeE6swVmdHh5poGn550yqivb1ppPgQ== X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncvY4SuBDhWHTmbzH/60xGG4lmCCSAbtlQ6gDCZL/zw9s8Yv0hdif9a04qfRXdX XfeR3x0JaknzQO/cpTMXXCAIaL7iEXSi1kvNhaKTYbPj0HfYc5Xw+jlNzfjcIFUo6phFlBbw1L+ 9dsAxXtEIO0ErVUVJ0TeOLUiKA8oxhn9GZ0MvWtjh3zCnlut6pepPCk7GL5n54kkIr9wlu1SN2J afdVFFDrzVkJB3qyam6BtVI0iLkDb3TxHGb2yg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFyZnxACOBkXxf7Ga43DgdxD/5lU8Hw4h8vab8B8HDDWS/QbW9m+p7HHHrggPc4thVudb/LwHbV/5m5ncvRupc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a21:999f:b0:240:116b:cc41 with SMTP id adf61e73a8af0-24340b2757bmr16403676637.16.1756118918089; Mon, 25 Aug 2025 03:48:38 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2r579os7-29n7-890r-9210-s3s1n4r0s4qo@fncre.vasb> <548137ff7d2289fa60a1cba14afa4957@Leidinger.net> In-Reply-To: <548137ff7d2289fa60a1cba14afa4957@Leidinger.net> From: Warner Losh Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2025 04:48:26 -0600 X-Gm-Features: Ac12FXzJ8aeBpw_EcEoTEGrhDWCy04013yPpb0WQzxdsAVMBBhBzTiN5EcUI4Cs Message-ID: Subject: Re: UPDATING stuff To: Alexander Leidinger Cc: Marcin Cieslak , Kyle Evans , Xin LI , Current , Gleb Smirnoff Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004be665063d2e4c13" X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4c9SFm2jw8z45Qn --0000000000004be665063d2e4c13 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Aug 25, 2025 at 3:13=E2=80=AFAM Alexander Leidinger wrote: > Am 2025-08-25 10:44, schrieb Marcin Cieslak: > > On Thu, 21 Aug 2025, Alexander Leidinger wrote: > > > >>>> COMPAT_FREEBSD14? (Recently [gs]etgroups were changed, with > >>>> compatibility syscalls moved to COMPAT_FREEBSD14). > >> > >> UPDATING only mentions VMM stuff for COMPAT_FREEBSD14. I give this a > >> try tomorrow. But would this also affect the zfs dataset stuff? > > > > This thread could have been a simple UPDATING update. I think this is > > the fourth > > time or so I have run into problems, because the changes were not > > explained. > > > > UPDATING entry on VMM got only there after I've spent 2 days+ > > troubleshooting > > my wifibox failures. > > > > When I read your message I was immediately thinking you might need > > "COMPAT_FREEBSD14", > > but, again, I couldn't find any obvious entry neither in the docs nor > > in > > the git log I was looking at. > > > > @glebus - maybe during the stabilization effort the changes done to the > > tree > > could be reviewed and documented? > > > > - where the FreeBSD_version got bumped and why > > This is normally documented in > https://docs.freebsd.org/en/books/porters-handbook/versions/ (intended > to be updated at the time when the FreeBSD_versions is increased), but I > can agree that the info there is a bit terse sometimes. > > > - ABI changes > > - .... > > > > For example it could be useful to be able to find the information "what > > does COMPAT_FREEBSD14 do exactly" in the UPDATING/release notes file. > > Otherwise I can't be sure if I need that option or "is my system fresh > > enough" > > to remove it from the kernel. > It provides the system call interface as of FreeBSD 14. As new system calls are added that replace old ones, they are moved to being conditional on COMPAT_FREEBSD14. You should never remove the COMPAT_FREEBSDX when you are on current X+1. It's a recipe for pain. FreeBSD 14 binaries still might not always work (there are companion issues with shared library bumps for our non-symbol-versioned libraries too: there you have to wait for new compat14 package and/or play libmap games since the major bump usually is compatible enough to run most old programs but not always and not perfectly... libmap is at best a stop-gap). > What do you think about this? > diff --git UPDATING UPDATING > index ddb2e7603b2a..e197940c6431 100644 > --- UPDATING > +++ UPDATING > @@ -73,6 +73,12 @@ NOTE TO PEOPLE WHO THINK THAT FreeBSD 15.x IS SLOW: > If you only have FreeBSD-sendmail installed for applications > that > require libmilter, you can now remove it. > > +20250815: > + The [gs}etgroups(2)syscalls have changed. To maintain backwards > + compatibility with existing programs, you need COMPAT_FREEBSD14 > in > + your kernel config until all applications which use this are > + rebuild/reinstalled. > + > 20250815: > jemalloc 5.3.0 has been committed to the tree. > I'd make it stronger. We should proactively create a COMPAT_FREEBSD15 just after the branch and add it to GENERIC. You 100% of the time want this if you aren't updating every last binary on your system each and every time you update. We should add that to our checklist to do eary, rather than late, as needed. It shouldn't be buried in an obscure entry, but advice we always give for everybody, all the time. GENERIC has it in there, which is why most people won't see this issue. Warner --0000000000004be665063d2e4c13 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon, Aug 25,= 2025 at 3:13=E2=80=AFAM Alexander Leidinger <Alexander@leidinger.net> wrote:
Am 2025-08-25 10:44, schrieb Marcin= Cieslak:
> On Thu, 21 Aug 2025, Alexander Leidinger wrote:
>
>>>> COMPAT_FREEBSD14?=C2=A0 (Recently [gs]etgroups were change= d, with
>>>> compatibility syscalls moved to COMPAT_FREEBSD14).
>>
>> UPDATING only mentions VMM stuff for COMPAT_FREEBSD14. I give this= a
>> try tomorrow. But would this also affect the zfs dataset stuff? >
> This thread could have been a simple UPDATING update.=C2=A0 I think th= is is
> the fourth
> time or so I have run into problems, because the changes were not
> explained.
>
> UPDATING entry on VMM got only there after I've spent 2 days+
> troubleshooting
> my wifibox failures.
>
> When I read your message I was immediately thinking you might need > "COMPAT_FREEBSD14",
> but, again, I couldn't find any obvious entry neither in the docs = nor
> in
> the git log I was looking at.
>
> @glebus - maybe during the stabilization effort the changes done to th= e
> tree
> could be reviewed and documented?
>
>=C2=A0 - where the FreeBSD_version got bumped and why

This is normally documented in
https://docs.freebsd.org/en/books/porter= s-handbook/versions/ (intended
to be updated at the time when the FreeBSD_versions is increased), but I can agree that the info there is a bit terse sometimes.

>=C2=A0 - ABI changes
>=C2=A0 - ....
>
> For example it could be useful to be able to find the information &quo= t;what
> does COMPAT_FREEBSD14 do exactly" in the UPDATING/release notes f= ile.
> Otherwise I can't be sure if I need that option or "is my sys= tem fresh
> enough"
> to remove it from the kernel.

It p= rovides the system call interface as of FreeBSD 14. As new system calls are= added that replace old ones, they are moved to being conditional on COMPAT= _FREEBSD14. You should never remove the COMPAT_FREEBSDX when you are on cur= rent X+1. It's a recipe for pain. FreeBSD 14 binaries still might not a= lways work (there are companion issues with shared library bumps for our no= n-symbol-versioned libraries too: there you have to wait for new compat14 p= ackage and/or play libmap games since the major bump usually is compatible = enough to run most old programs but not always and not perfectly... libmap = is at best a stop-gap).
=C2=A0
What do you think about this?
diff --git UPDATING UPDATING
index ddb2e7603b2a..e197940c6431 100644
--- UPDATING
+++ UPDATING
@@ -73,6 +73,12 @@ NOTE TO PEOPLE WHO THINK THAT FreeBSD 15.x IS SLOW:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If you only have FreeBSD-sendmail install= ed for applications
that
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0require libmilter, you can now remove it.=

+20250815:
+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The [gs}etgroups(2)syscalls have changed. To ma= intain backwards
+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0compatibility with existing programs, you need = COMPAT_FREEBSD14
in
+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0your kernel config until all applications which= use this are
+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0rebuild/reinstalled.
+
=C2=A0 20250815:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0jemalloc 5.3.0 has been committed to the = tree.

I'd make it stronger. We shou= ld proactively create a COMPAT_FREEBSD15 just after the branch and add it t= o GENERIC. You 100% of the time want this if you aren't updating every = last binary on your system each and every time you update. We should add th= at to our checklist to do eary, rather than late, as needed. It shouldn'= ;t be buried in an obscure entry, but advice we always give for everybody, = all the time. GENERIC has it in there, which is why most people won't s= ee this issue.

Warner
--0000000000004be665063d2e4c13--