Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 18:48:20 -0500 From: Baho Utot <baho-utot@columbus.rr.com> Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List <freebsd-ports@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Removing documentation Message-ID: <56C263C4.6000506@columbus.rr.com> In-Reply-To: <56C20B76.805@sorbs.net> References: <56C1E579.30303@marino.st> <20160215165952.6199743BFA@shepard.synsport.net> <56C2075A.5000409@marino.st> <56C20B76.805@sorbs.net>
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Michelle Sullivan wrote: > John Marino wrote: >> On 2/15/2016 5:59 PM, Roger Marquis wrote: >> >>> It was actually worse than that. Those of us who questioned the wisdom >>> of such disruptive and backwards-incompatible changes being implemented >>> mid-release instead of at a release boundry were A) ignored, B) told that >>> there were not enough (developer) resources, and C) even the announcement >>> was unprofessional and lacked justification for the rush job: >>> >> This makes no sense. Ports are not tied to base releases. >> And you think lack of developer resources is an invalid reason? >> > Actually it made perfect sense... (for a change) ... make pkgng the > default on 10.x and allow people to use either on 8.4 and 9.x ... this > made perfect sense... Make base packaging using similar/same tools as > part of 11+ makes perfect sense... > > > ....No, though... arbitrary date set, f**k real users, f**k whether it > works or not, because we need people to put it in production so we can > test our buggy software... > >> >>> There comes a time in the life cycle of just about every software >>> package that it has bee re-evaluated, refreshed, deprecated or just >>> retired. >>> >>> It is time that we bid farewell to the old pkg_* software that has been >>> part of FreeBSD since the beginning, and has served us well. After >>> years of development, testing, and playing, pkg(8) has become a >>> suitable replacement. >>> >>> "there comes a time"? "time that we bid farewell"? These are not >>> suitable criteria IMO for dropping support of mission-critical >>> subsystems. The FreeBSD Foundation SHOULD have played a part in insuring >>> a smoother transition to pkgng (much less portsng and, gack, rcng) but >>> this doesn't seem to have been on their radar. >>> >> You know good and well that people kick the can down the road FOREVER. >> You could have announced it 3 years ahead and people would still scream >> NOT YET! NOT YET! This would NEVER happen in Linux! >> >> It doesn't matter where you draw the line, you will never get everyone >> to respect it. It's never enough time. >> > Line drawn - at the next major version... that's an easy win... people > can complain, but they can't argue that it isn't a good decision because > they can choose... upgrade/don't upgrade... we didn't get the chance to > choose ... it was forced down peoples necks... working or not. > Fortunately I was able to get the old system working again... and in > fact keep it up to date until about 3 months ago... (and only stopped > there because I have other things to do - will go back to it again later.) > >>>> From my perspective as an advocate and long-time user (since 2.0.5) this >>>> >>> marked a low-point in the viability of FreeBSD vis-a-vis other FOSS >>> distributions. Thankfully, going forward from FreeBSD 11 the release >>> cycle has been lengthened and base is going to be packaged. Those of use >>> who support large numbers of dev and production systems can at least >>> expect that future upgrades won't be as time-consuming or, hopefully, as >>> buggy. >>> >> "large numbers of dev and production systems" (push to memory stack) >> >> >> >> >>> I believe this is factually incorrect. We were aware but the decisions >>> were being made by core developers who were not, apparently, interested >>> in our concerns or the expected fallout. >>> >> So you chose to ignore the deadlines in the hopes the pleading would >> work? You intentionally did not prepare against the published timetable? >> > Well I didn't know - despite following the conversations on the public > lists - until 3 weeks before the event that the change was going to > deliberately and irrevocably break the old systems... again... > >> >>>> There was always the option of freezing the tree and pulling in the >>>> security updates manually until you were ready to migrate to pkg(8) too. >>>> >>> Sure, if you can afford to pay a full-time core dev there's the option of >>> backporting but even this was made impractical by the simultaneous >>> deprecation of the pre-ng ports tree, make version and pkg format. >>> >> No, it's not fully time. You just said "large numbers of dev and >> production systems", so I am pretty confident the business case would >> have been there for this. >> >> It's a business, right? You aren't talking about a shoestring hobby. >> > Dunno about Roger, but I am and I had been campaigning internally about > getting support for FreeBSD as a platform and support for the foundation > in the way of devs and/or cash... that is *never* going to happen now. > Money has been allocated and sent to Redhat (nothing to do with me, but > the pkgng debacle left me without legs to argue the case, so the > decision makers stuffed that.) > >>> There are lots of reasons why Linux has effectively eclipsed BSD >>> including device drivers, unattended deployments and install menus but >>> 8.X's wholesale throwing of so many of us under the bus was by far the >>> worst. >>> >> And now the fully circle. This is FreeBSD's Godwin's law. You know the >> discussion is over when somebody says that "[issue] of the day" is the >> root cause of BSD being eclipsed by Linux. Since I've heard [issue] >> replaced about 200 times, I'm kind of doubting it. I guess it's purpose >> is to make everyone involved with "[issue]" to feel personally >> responsible and oh what could have been if you hadn't of made the wrong >> decision.... >> > That I can't (and won't) comment on, but I will tell you that's the > reason all new servers I manage are being installed with CentOS+paid > support contract and not FreeBSD+donation. The bed was made by people, > they can sleep in it. > > Michelle What time of the month is it? I seem to of lost my place.
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