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Date:      Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:36:02 -0500
From:      "Crist J. Clark" <cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com>
To:        Jay Nelson <noslenj@swbell.net>
Cc:        Brad Knowles <blk@skynet.be>, cjclark@home.com, Mark Ovens <mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"]
Message-ID:  <20000327223602.B11538@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.05.10003271847340.786-100000@acp.swbell.net>; from noslenj@swbell.net on Mon, Mar 27, 2000 at 07:30:38PM -0600
References:  <v04220811b505330f911e@[195.238.1.121]> <Pine.BSF.4.05.10003271847340.786-100000@acp.swbell.net>

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On Mon, Mar 27, 2000 at 07:30:38PM -0600, Jay Nelson wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, Brad Knowles wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> >	The #1 killer of police is their own weapon -- they get it taken 
> >away from them and used against them.  For obvious reasons, police 
> >departments don't want this statistic to get out.
> >
> >	This also happens to be the #1 killer of people with firearms at 
> >home -- the intruder takes the weapon away and kills them with it.
> >
> >
> >	If we taught people (including our police) how to properly use 
> >their weapons, this problem would go away.
> >
> >	You can forget every single other aspect of this argument -- 
> >until you can solve the problem of people who own firearms knowing 
> >enough about them and their proper handling to prevent them from 
> >being taken away and used against them, you're never going to get 
> >much progress.
> 
> The problem isn't actually training people to handle the weapon --
> it's training people to deal with a violent confrontation -- which
> happens very rarely in our world today -- but _does_ happen.

But rarely, see we all agree. And wouldn't it be nice if in most of
those cases, neither one of the people in the situation had a gun?
Yes, there is always the chance that a Bad Guy will find one, but if
there are just plain fewer guns to be had, the chance is lower. And
what about the many times in these confrontations where neither one
really is a Bad Guy, just two Good (or Not-So-Bad) Guys in a
misunderstanding?

> The violent criminals out there didn't learn from the movies, but from
> experience. An unarmed individual that knows how to deal with violence
> has an advantage over an armed individual who doesn't. But an armed
> individual _will_ slow them down long enough to take the advantage if
> if the armed individual is capable.  


> The anti-gun zealots seem to harp on the "accidental" shootings and
> the dangers to the owner. In the real world -- there is no such thing
> as an "accidental discharge." There is, of course, stupidity, which
> the zealots don't want to address because it's far more complicated
> than guns. And -- attacking arms feels better.

Huh?

  ac·ci·dent 'ak-s&-d&nt, -"dent; 'aks-d&nt
  1 a : an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance b : lack of
  intention or necessity : CHANCE <met by accident rather than by
  design>
  2 a : an unfortunate event resulting especially from carelessness or
  ignorance b : an unexpected and medically important bodily event
  especially when injurious <a cerebrovascular accident> c : an
  unexpected happening causing loss or injury which is not due to any
  fault or misconduct on the part of the person injured but for which
  legal relief may be sought
  3 : a nonessential property or quality of an entity or circumstance
  <the accident of nationality>

Shooting yourself or someone else unintentionally is almost always
stupid, but it's still an accident. I don't understand how you are
saying this is more complicated. It's simple. People, everyone, you,
me, and everyone reading this, make mistakes. If you want to classify
them all as stupid, OK, but we all do it. And when one makes a mistake
with a deadly weapon, which is going to happen at a certain rate
because people do screw up, the stakes are just that much
higher. Where's the complexity?

> Most of the reasoned discussion in this diversion of the thread seems
> to come from people who clearly have never faced a violent
> confrontation and are basing their logic on the movies. That will
> convince people who also learn from movies. It will never sway those
> who learned up close and personal -- so I think we are wasting a lot of
> band width and should get back to hand-wringing over the merger.

Strange. I think it's just the other way around. The people who watch
the movies and the sensationalized news coverage to me are the ones
who think they need to pack heat in case some random stranger comes
for them, and the chances of that are remote. The few times I have
found myself in violent situations, I am sure glad no one pulled a
gun. Fight or flight works for me, but I can't outrun a bullet.

No, let's not go back to the merger. Brett has not been to vocal on
this thread... But yeah, it's old and no one is going to sell any of
it to anyone else.
-- 
Crist J. Clark                           cjclark@home.com


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