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Date:      Sun, 7 Aug 2016 21:52:37 +0300
From:      Slawa Olhovchenkov <slw@zxy.spb.ru>
To:        Andrey Chernov <ache@freebsd.org>
Cc:        src-committers@freebsd.org, svn-src-all@freebsd.org, Oliver Pinter <oliver.pinter@hardenedbsd.org>, Bruce Simpson <bms@fastmail.net>, Warner Losh <wlosh@bsdimp.com>, svn-src-head@freebsd.org, Dag-Erling =?utf-8?B?U23DuHJncmF2?= <des@freebsd.org>
Subject:   Re: svn commit: r303716 - head/crypto/openssh
Message-ID:  <20160807185237.GV8192@zxy.spb.ru>
In-Reply-To: <b335d3fb-5cea-4498-ec6e-fedf581d0cbe@freebsd.org>
References:  <7237f5e6-fd65-a7e5-7751-4ed1c464b39a@freebsd.org> <4D28752C-0584-4294-9250-FA88B0C6E805@bsdimp.com> <c54673d0-8edd-b185-c86e-95a6aa6d0846@fastmail.net> <32b82f9f-7f78-6358-030a-90aed54bb8a8@freebsd.org> <0740b662-4a36-f834-229a-d16a5a6dde14@freebsd.org> <20160807173734.GD22212@zxy.spb.ru> <2dd7e952-ca28-57cb-ac8a-39d895b51d06@freebsd.org> <e43e43f2-4043-847f-f1d8-f791e2d8b91d@freebsd.org> <20160807182317.GE22212@zxy.spb.ru> <b335d3fb-5cea-4498-ec6e-fedf581d0cbe@freebsd.org>

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On Sun, Aug 07, 2016 at 09:34:51PM +0300, Andrey Chernov wrote:

> On 07.08.2016 21:23, Slawa Olhovchenkov wrote:
> > On Sun, Aug 07, 2016 at 09:06:37PM +0300, Andrey Chernov wrote:
> > 
> >> On 07.08.2016 20:43, Andrey Chernov wrote:
> >>> On 07.08.2016 20:37, Slawa Olhovchenkov wrote:
> >>>> On Sun, Aug 07, 2016 at 08:34:55PM +0300, Andrey Chernov wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 07.08.2016 20:31, Andrey Chernov wrote:
> >>>>>> On 07.08.2016 19:14, Bruce Simpson wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 07/08/16 15:40, Warner Losh wrote:
> >>>>>>>> That’s a cop-out answer. We, as a project, need to articulate to our
> >>>>>>>> users, whom we care about, why this rather obnoxious hit to usability
> >>>>>>>> was taken. The answer must be more complete than “We just disabled
> >>>>>>>> it because upstream disabled it for reasons we’re too lazy to explain
> >>>>>>>> or document how to work around"
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Alcatel-Lucent OmniSwitch 6800 login broken (pfSense 2.3.2 which
> >>>>>>> accepted the upstream change, workaround no-go)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> [2.3.2-RELEASE][root@gw.lab]/root: ssh -l admin
> >>>>>>> -oKexAlgorithms=+diffie-hellman-group1-sha1 192.168.1.XXX
> >>>>>>> Fssh_ssh_dispatch_run_fatal: Connection to 192.168.1.XXX port 22: DH GEX
> >>>>>>> group out of range
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> DH prime size must be at least 2048, openssh now refuse lower values.
> >>>>>> Commonly used DH size 1024 can be easily broken. See https://weakdh.org
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> diffie-hellman-group1-sha1 use DH 1024 and insecure sha1 both.
> >>>>
> >>>> IMHO, this is wrong choise: totaly lost of control now vs teoretical
> >>>> compromise of control in the future.
> >>>
> >>> Please note that it was not my choice and I can't answer what to do with
> >>> non-upgradeable hardware question, address it to the author. I just tell
> >>> you _why_ it happens.
> >>>
> >>
> >> BTW, compromise is practical enough. From https://weakdh.org/ "A close
> >> reading of published NSA leaks shows that the agency's attacks on VPNs
> >> are consistent with having achieved such a break."
> > 
> > For this compromise need
> > 
> > 1) NSA interesed to me
> 
> This particular condition is not necessary, they can decrypt all traffic
> with weak DH primes passed through main channels in USA and perhaps
> partially in Europe (depends on mutual agreement), then find interesting
> keywords to spy more closely afterwards.

My interraction with weak devices don't cross EU/USA borders.
I am assume Bruce's interraction with weak devices don't cross server
room.

Yes, I am know about 'security in depth'.
But PCI-DSS don't be need at any places.

> > 2) NSA must be able to access to weak device for traffic
> > intercept
> > 
> > This is imposible at this time.
> > 
> > Also, if NSA can be able to intercept such traffic weak crypto will be
> > last resort of my trouble.
> 
> About the rest, I am not the person to argue with. Why you still not

I am not convince you. 
I am also just talk my opinion (as you).

> send your opinion to the author?
> 

I am not sure about suitable response from autor.
May be project [FreeBSD] choise some compromise.

Last time I am have only two devices with weak crypto.
One device can be accept only DES.
Other accept only rsa/dss (if not hanged).
I am able to create ssh client with support this weak ciphers for
access to this devices. I am will be sad about causeless enforcing
strong crypto.



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