From owner-svn-src-head@freebsd.org Sat Jan 27 21:51:20 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: svn-src-head@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AC74EC4D0B for ; Sat, 27 Jan 2018 21:51:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-io0-x231.google.com (mail-io0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E1747B5F0 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 2018 21:51:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-io0-x231.google.com with SMTP id 25so3883694ioj.9 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 2018 13:51:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=/Y7UzvuKXzrNv/VwOvr3strKfQHEUOD4GN29ysN0v04=; b=L6SH/IF4wozoDjKaiMXoodazW3Fgyyx1PAAeFo12TCH0Sv+tNLb8niWd9o3MRov+Bo +1/+i/NCoZuALN4pEozoIp+evHjd+PNo8SeOWDtKoeGYtboD4XyJnoidn8SzXZGoO+fR ZU66+S13z9/9CIAG+rk+JDItzF+tke3DAwEkWHmaj4W8u/H6Q6pwI3TtUtsrZTjNlUDI CMaBWuoGDoegi86F8C13JqQwnJSH3twRJjjnYs2ox43RywB6pLElamH399xpTaJ7JPxA 8NqFMJVBpi5gU1o7lBxk6GjZKRSYfW++OdEFgajaOJ79SFe7BfO3rg+vWupBau5NqtUT rIQw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=/Y7UzvuKXzrNv/VwOvr3strKfQHEUOD4GN29ysN0v04=; b=EeJfWummWz8z8VF/6/fpwpTth3WrfH2z/ot5x8ahJtnm1UdyuPZtuMNv7YSG3g2da0 w4VZM38DrTUySk2rPxcQKteX2r+g4590sCJCfW7ex1zRYIk8PLgXY3I4o+g7MClAJKU5 EHU1+xNpBBmNuxytZFxYreKFu06J9HOzTvPrlh0BlN7Up96n1/ZNqOXa8TNNg/KJccJ6 ifRWCUuaRrKPHKIRszvZYGSx3mji87GYlvyGR/l7N2ZW35LVNeJb29dTRcRx5aXm4WiZ TLGEsZ/irU8uret48NHg96qPKZhdt2k7Q1yRMpYQ9ZqcPuGvC4De9SnNOENeXP+Jot4D oaCw== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytdWSaN3jCQQjww8Uu5L8FQ3Du1URxHfivyQMjKJsepNRCqkcfeT NbS31EAE09cBHD4ljf80pnTyw2NJXwPxLEaLTjuBiw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x227tZoWpft/3FVQLOYTpRAmYnGqhGEcry33D5ic0VJ9//hY571U50DsAw6dNxGdisRDz1pYQpTiYpOzbGHbdhDw= X-Received: by 10.107.136.76 with SMTP id k73mr21354321iod.301.1517089878961; Sat, 27 Jan 2018 13:51:18 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: wlosh@bsdimp.com Received: by 10.79.201.67 with HTTP; Sat, 27 Jan 2018 13:51:17 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [2607:fb90:6e30:c242:925:21a5:6ad2:b82] Received: by 10.79.201.67 with HTTP; Sat, 27 Jan 2018 13:51:17 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <201801272132.w0RLWMqi011256@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> References: <20180127214840.dc033d582696ff7b51f6d7e6@bidouilliste.com> <201801272132.w0RLWMqi011256@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> From: Warner Losh Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 14:51:17 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: kSH7z1yfJAtCK20rtf0TANc1C3Q Message-ID: Subject: Re: svn commit: r328257 - in head/sys: arm/broadcom/bcm2835 dts/arm modules To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: Emmanuel Vadot , Adrian Chadd , Poul-Henning Kamp , John Baldwin , Ravi Pokala , src-committers , svn-src-all@freebsd.org, svn-src-head@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: svn-src-head@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: SVN commit messages for the src tree for head/-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 21:51:20 -0000 On Jan 27, 2018 2:32 PM, "Rodney W. Grimes" wrote: > On Sat, 27 Jan 2018 12:13:57 -0800 > Adrian Chadd wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > Find the middle ground. Don't dissuade the developer too much. > > This is what happened two years ago when I started hacking on the > allwinner SoCs : > > - I asked what should be done for bringing a new board > - andrew@ told me that we first need to switch to upstream dts and > update drivers. > - Guess what, I did that. Great, thats good co-operatation and communications, sometimes though it is not so smooth. The better we become at dealing with the not so smooth the faster forward progress can be made. The path we are on is the fastest. > > Here's an example: > > > > Make the driver follow DTS, allow a tunable/kenv check for it to > > override whether it needs to be in the DTS or not (the "keep phk happy > > for now" compromise) and have it default to obeying the device tree. > > > > That way phk is kept happy and the defaults are the same as normal-ish > > ARM /and/ you have a springboard to experiment with extending FDT > > overlays at runtime for people who wish to do so. > > I don't care about keeping phk@ (or any other developer) happy, we > have a standard, let's stick to it. *sigh* Let me ask you if you do not care about keeping any other developers happy, why should any of them be concerned about keeping you happy? We need to always try to find middle ground and co-operate in positive ways. On the "we have a standard" front, well when standards get in the way of forward progress they are often side stepped. Maybe this standard is not such a good standard and warts are going to form around it. I have seen some discusssion at least on ways to improve the current situation, hopefully someone takes them and runs with them. Others have pointed out they do not like the current model in that it gets in the way of developement progress. I can see this point. I can see phk's points, and I can see your points. IMHO if we shove the standard down our own throats we are in effect cutting our hands off in the process, not somethig we really want to do is it? It beats the chaos we had before where nothing was leveraged and everything was a custom hack. > > (I personally hate having to edit the dts/recompile/reboot for every > > test hardware change; it makes breadboarding things up kinda > > hilariously annoying.) > > Use overlays then. And if you don't want to reboot provide patch for > loading overlays at runtime. Are those the only solutions? Yes. Unless you show up with a boatload of work. There is a decade of history here that I'm loathe to just ignore. I have some WiP that will make things better, but it is complicated. You can't just enable the device. You have to change the pinctl stuff too. People saying just do this hack or that hack which ignores this will be ignored as their solution is incomplete (and basically useless). My advice is to see where we are once I find a few minutes to finish my WiP before pronouncing the right way forward. Or you can comment on the design I sent a week ago. Warner > > -adrian > Emmanuel Vadot -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org