From owner-freebsd-ports@freebsd.org Tue Feb 9 08:23:15 2016 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-ports@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 669DCAA10A4 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2016 08:23:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from baptiste.daroussin@gmail.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42486D5D for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2016 08:23:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from baptiste.daroussin@gmail.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 41E26AA10A3; Tue, 9 Feb 2016 08:23:15 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: ports@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4171DAA10A2 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2016 08:23:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from baptiste.daroussin@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lf0-x232.google.com (mail-lf0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA3DAD5C; Tue, 9 Feb 2016 08:23:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from baptiste.daroussin@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lf0-x232.google.com with SMTP id m1so112228016lfg.0; Tue, 09 Feb 2016 00:23:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=stxWJAkHIAMkcmr4WCX26qPzjkPhvOvzSvL5WvBV50w=; b=P+vJRiKIWU3PXpi/sT5mtiFTod2HA2MiLudSDOy5Ir17qwc4+80Kz8tm6RuJddhcx9 NXbMoOhh+BcOjZehcsj9p6y489nMeBvAmfc5t1Riyeo55BBEUrLMJW96lsOiiiylVIf+ fVIMzuYPMFbmLups4CiNLnMc9oIqi5QtwMooAUm/LPcQT4+fosYBh5zXK4/AwabUzdY1 +GkqAFqroMjKkiS1Sn3iaO/c1mBqX9ZvQJacBJ14Ai83pPsw+jqJNdN6ovJNYB8HZLOP OOwjx+czPYpFdP4qAg9biSbqU3PxniP00XbzVuVrSfhycViCoZ6K7XZc3Vi0x/dGk2RQ s5Sg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id :references:mime-version:content-type:content-disposition :in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=stxWJAkHIAMkcmr4WCX26qPzjkPhvOvzSvL5WvBV50w=; b=FP9QSJZVvOgcoP91yuR/5thJ9kP7T6G+r5L6IBn/ox/ZUmzYBFAAc5nASSHC4oJMw/ vDcarN957Y1EiJ1iUZx4i5GvMk1oN80EYObuyIkzn1HVKqnnTawaNqGauCIeWVbZ02dv 0TyHK9QQ8AK7IJzVRqHpESw5FGoYqQtbBqzkXzOIdq8Z+YAW993gQKflhRrGD8IMN6SN yQcd2HINWlsZGDO4E8N1Okfk9LfZdcKr7Fv60JW/68ylbge4e6zLTGRGFvIwQytp/RYi bwwmAMPQrjE/LskWKWWZNyfsyxkl009iag9a+i7TYLxbB4MYauiQjOmAPm0GdzIKbt7a J8Iw== X-Gm-Message-State: AG10YOTO6WzPYYJ+TaRUQyoLgse8MeAgqa6spQRcBAU61xDgYpiJbCAd2Ua7/ziA6GqiMQ== X-Received: by 10.25.21.29 with SMTP id l29mr11064367lfi.123.1455006192645; Tue, 09 Feb 2016 00:23:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from ivaldir.etoilebsd.net ([2001:41d0:8:db4c::1]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ac10sm4401613lbc.44.2016.02.09.00.23.11 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 09 Feb 2016 00:23:12 -0800 (PST) Sender: Baptiste Daroussin Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 09:23:09 +0100 From: Baptiste Daroussin To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey Cc: ports@freebsd.org, marino@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Removing documentation (was: [Bug 206922] Handbook: Chapter 4.5+ changes) Message-ID: <20160209082309.GD1141@ivaldir.etoilebsd.net> References: <20160207000304.GA71035@eureka.lemis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="llIrKcgUOe3dCx0c" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20160207000304.GA71035@eureka.lemis.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-BeenThere: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting software to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2016 08:23:15 -0000 --llIrKcgUOe3dCx0c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Feb 07, 2016 at 11:03:04AM +1100, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > I'm bringing this to the attention of the ports community to try to > come up with a consensus about how to handle existing documentation > for ageing packages, in this case portmaster. >=20 > This bug report suggests removing the documentation for portmaster > because it is out of date and no longer maintained. >=20 > But it's still in the ports tree, and people still use it. The > current wording (4.5.3.1) claims it is the recommended tool, which is > clearly out of date. marino@ (the submitter) writes: >=20 > On Friday, 5 February 2016 at 7:33:33 +0000, bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.o= rg wrote: > > > > You have a tool presented as "official" that hasn't had it's > > original maintainer in 4 years and was only kept on life support up > > until 9 months ago. >=20 > Agreed, the "official" (the term used is "recommended") status is > gone. But that's a reason to fix the documentation, not remove it. > As I see it, we have three choices, in increasing order of > desirability: >=20 > 1. Remove all mention of portmaster. That's what this PR recommends. > 2. Do nothing. > 3. Update the documentation to indicate the current status, > recommending alternatives if possible. >=20 > The real issue here is that we shouldn't remove documentation for > software that is still available. In addition, wblock@ writes: >=20 > On Friday, 5 February 2016 at 14:48:07 +0000, bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.o= rg wrote: > > > > At present, portmaster still has no direct competition... >=20 > More generally, the way I see it is simple: we should try to keep the > documentation as up-to-date as possible. This means that we don't > remove documentation for existing packages. It also means that we may > need to change the content of the documentation if the status (not > necessarily the content) of the package changes. >=20 > One of the arguments for removing it from the handbook is that it has > a man page. That has some merit, but it doesn't help the people who > have used portmaster and now don't know what to do. Even if portmgr > is deprecated, the documentation should suggest a replacement. >=20 > Can portmgr@ come up with a clear, easy-to-understand policy? >=20 In my opinion there is no reason to remove the mention of portmaster in the handbook as long as it is not "official" and "recommended" but just listed = as a possible tools. There are plenty of documentation on the handbook to explain how to use $th= ird party tools. portmaster has some design flaws and clearly synth has a way better and saf= er one. But that does not mean portmaster is ready to go away as there are ple= nty of users using it still and for some cases, no alternative is available. For instance, as far as I know synth is not available on non i386/amd64 architectures which is imho the major issue for being a candidate for a replacement of portmaster. As much as I don't like the way portmaster (and portupgrade) are designed: = aka unsafe building, there are still IMHO no alternative by the fact that an alternative should cover all our supported architectures. For i386/amd64 us= ers yes synth is a viable alternative and a way safer one. Also note that synth= is still very young and before pushing anything that would kill others, it wou= ld be good to be more patient and and see how the tool behave/is adopted/is maint= ained over the time. Regarding portmaster, I think it would be time to deprecate it and remove it =66rom the ports tree/documentation the day when it prevents us from adding= an important feature into the ports tree, which may or may not happen soon. Out of my mind such features could be: - subpackages - flavours/variant Note that the above would require changes in all the port management tools.= Also note that as far as I know noone is working on the first (subpackages) and someone picked up the work on flavours/variants based on where I stopped bu= t I don't think it will land in the ports tree any time soon. (also note I'm not working on those feature anymore for now, because of ENOTIME :() BTW: just a clarification on the dependency front: - at runtime synth depends on only 1 port: ncurses - at bulidtime it depends on 2 ports: ada (gcc-aux)/ncurses (gcc-aux itself= my drag other build dependency. Best regards, Bapt --llIrKcgUOe3dCx0c Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJWuaHtAAoJEGOJi9zxtz5aKnkQAOCuzlgquosQ7LB+BZcczpG0 UdTm1/BxXJxgBq/CDRu3Zp3e6RKnH+zyY4ILMsGXxNYEnYTVyWeMucL56nkr0ZBQ HAt1TavI40+3+KPKlnGDh3zgucW7dZkQJ3Tp6e+pNYSXXVpkSaqD9t7U+1oHylA8 2VpTfMoPfAcDDycQJi1nPe/sgB0SYHll+gRmvBKoZEcjVGMRM9B3Rcg1AlQnTHDX Ve6egjBmG4EQdLwoZBhNObW4d3T0W7Ye9/hW9wittuid0zYmjrZIpCt0AMd06lq0 WS8610FbsZNDn41HJ925CmsRzmZbMAcBeCQaE9V03lx3l99t3nd+/vXd0BRSkdeq QH+jHMFrGTNO3wmgK7aDH8yXh6fexVgkLigf1RB1TTKPQ2+DkfCLYeID0ivJTNlh T6QURkeGuGF4LwRCK4QqgX/oot7vHHc3F5ADcKP1o9O+UwVBTFZfrB2lo+y5zdGf zHPNpmc2hhdZV4ApgjZcLo6P6b5rRfajwFjSw3wdpDfy705MrF+I7plvT9RO9P7+ jAXQ8ZKQd3cGrpPZMPkUo8rKKuuhhoYvcLT2Jh758zgaCqynUMPDUmm0z+gXIspn qWuA7ncOrtD3NjZ1C8fmj6ZifuNh7CgJW8hV7x0WlTCCdzWFHe135fx6BV/feF16 q7yMUYzMJUSXAZn9TaJF =p5eN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --llIrKcgUOe3dCx0c--