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Date:      Wed, 25 Jan 2012 10:08:42 +0100
From:      Davide Italiano <davide.italiano@gmail.com>
To:        Arnaud Lacombe <lacombar@gmail.com>
Cc:        Mark Linimon <linimon@lonesome.com>, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject:   Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle
Message-ID:  <CACYV=-GX0rQ5QMyYxZsPrk8ma_aeBjwBwFGZiCBD5MCUPREJ2g@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CACqU3MWS92tn0zUV=PGRYqjz-2K=6mgSU0M1tM7KnrsFhNaJ_g@mail.gmail.com>
References:  <CACqU3MXGxRpyT4CDHmzpvzwSPsFi1MHxWa6C9RJiJ1jditWB4Q@mail.gmail.com> <20120125072809.GA11115@lonesome.com> <CACqU3MWS92tn0zUV=PGRYqjz-2K=6mgSU0M1tM7KnrsFhNaJ_g@mail.gmail.com>

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On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 9:58 AM, Arnaud Lacombe <lacombar@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 2:28 AM, Mark Linimon <linimon@lonesome.com> wrot=
e:
>>> I might just be also interested to review/comment code, discuss
>>> regressions, and architecture, for a change ;-)
>>> Unfortunately, such threads rarely ever happen. Most of the time, the
>>> only food provided is a really indigestible +5000/-3000 patch, where
>>> all the thinking, architectural design and code has been done behind
>>> closed door of a limited few committers, research lab or company.
>>
>> That's odd. =A0What the src committers usually tell me, when I have my
>> bugmeister-advocate hat on, is that they post patches and then no one
>> comments until after they check them in, at which time they complain.
>> This discourages them from going through this the next time.
>>
> exactly my point, huge patches are impossible to review.
>
>> You will also note that some of the large commits say "MFp4" or "MF:
>> <projectname>". =A0That means that either our Perforce repository, or
>> SVN project/ directory, were used as staging areas. =A0It's possible to
>> subscribe to these email messages. =A0(Exactly how is left as an exercis=
e
>> for the reader; the hour is getting late.)
>>
> that is indeed a good source for having a look at early-alpha-WIP stuff.
>
>> As for the research lab/company commits, I'm sure you'd complain equally
>> if the code that these groups develop in-house and then release when it'=
s
>> in some kind of stable state, instead didn't get released at all.
>>
> I see company contributed code as ad-hoc solution to the company's
> problem, not general solution for the whole FreeBSD userbase. To make
> a comparison with Linux, it is just as if Google got all the Android
> code merged in mainline as-is, without re-working anything. It did not
> happen that way. Much of their code had (and still has) to be
> re-designed, abstracted, and adapted to fit the general-purpose
> mainline.
>
>> But, of course, I'm wasting my time trying to give you reasoned argument=
s
>> about why FreeBSD does one thing or another. =A0AFAICT you're only inter=
ested
>> in spreading FUD about what we do, how we do it, and what we say about i=
t
>> before, during, and afterwards.
>
> is this FUD: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=3Dkern/160992 ?
> is this FUD: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=3Dkern/156540 ?
> is this FUD: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=3Dkern/156799 ?
> is this FUD: http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2011-Sept=
ember/027400.html
> ?
> is this FUD: http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2011-Dece=
mber/030076.html
> ?
>
> answer to all the above: no, this is bugs, regressions, and mis-design
> you folks introduced, not me. Don't blame me to point it out.
>
>> You seem to be obsessed by picking over
>> semantics and finding shortcomings to be aggreived over.
>>
> Semantics and proper, independent, API are crucial.
>
> There is tons of ad-hoc code in FreeBSD which should be properly
> generalized. The most silly example I can think about is
> `time_after()', defined in <net80211/ieee80211_freebsd.h>. This has
> _nothing_ to do specifically with IEEE802.11, it's about time
> manipulation. Feel free to search the tree, there is tons of
> potentially unsafe, open-coded version of this macros. Call it
> nit-picking if you want, but when I write code, I want an API to use,
> I'm fed up to always have to re-invent the wheel.
>
> Btw, I do not even speak about some functions in the kernel
> re-implementing the exact same logic +10 times in a row, one after the
> other, within the same function body...
>
> For the story, I've been hacking tonight in Linux... a pure pleasure,
> real tough to get to, but really enjoyable.
>
>> Whatever patches or review you've contributed to date, to my mind, are
>> like the last tiny little bits of onion that are left over after one pee=
ls
>> off all the outer layers. =A0There may be something to it, but the effor=
t
>> to get down to that point is so painful that it's not worth it.
>>
>> tl;dr: your drama outweighs your contributions.
>>
> I already commented on this. I'm no longer interested in getting my
> stuff integrated in FreeBSD. I put it on github, eventually send
> patches on MLs, then you do what you want with it, I no longer
> particularly care. I know some patches are used around, that's enough.
> I did my time fighting committers to fix their not-so-bugfree code and
> won those battles, that's enough for me.
>

What I'm completely missing is the reason why you're repeating "this
is my last word" or "that's enough for me" or $THATSALLFOLKS_SENTENCE,
but you continue adding some Gaussian noise on the MLs w/out a valid
reason.
If you enjoy other projects, go there. But please, don't piss off.

> =A0- Arnaud
>
> ps: I have a particular appreciation for this PR, a feature praised by
> users, and no committer dares to care:
> http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=3Dkern/161553 ... silly.
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Davide



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